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Author Topic: Points  (Read 2217 times)
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torveaux
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« on: August 03, 2014, 01:27:49 AM »

First, please read this forum thread to fully comprehend my extreme confusion: http://forum.imperiaonline.org/int/index.php?topic=33847.0

Now that you've finished, I hope this suggestion makes a little more sense.

As mentioned in the linked thread, sometimes points are awarded according to the formula: points = spent resources / 1000 (* 2 if the resources are spent on military units). And sometimes points are awarded according to the formula: points = a different number than they were just a moment ago.   head_hurts_kr

Here goes my ways I've come up with to fix the problem:

1) Award all points based on the amount of resources spent, according to whatever formula works best. That includes troops from the bonus chest, which cost zero resources, fortress repairs, peaceful province annexation, anything that increases the number of buildings, technologies, holdings, military units, non-military units, or even possibly alliance assets a player has. Additionally, when un-building something refunds resources (as of right now, only disbanding troops), use the same formula to calculate how many points should be subtracted. Note that military losses refund zero resources, and so if you lose troops, you still have all the points they're worth. The strengths of this solution are that points become easier to calculate, if you keep track of everything you buy, and a bit easier to manage, because you control every change to your points. Some strategy nuances this solution brings up are the need to keep your army safe, even more so than before, and a greatly increased value of "liquid" assets (resources) as opposed to "solid" ones (buildings, etc.), which would lead to enhanced competitiveness in the market and a dependency on farming to control more "liquid" assets. The weaknesses of this solution are that losing your army can end your competitiveness in the realm permanently, because you are competing in a higher attack range due to points that do not reflect your current strength, which leads to further defeats, etc.

2) Award all points based on the intrinsic value of whatever is bought, according to whatever standard works best. (Personally, I'd suggest resource cost according to the current formula but always based on the price of something at level 0 university, military university, architecture, builder's guild, academy, and military academy.) When something is un-built, refund exactly the same amount of points as were awarded to build it (because the player lost the intrinsic value of whatever was un-built). Under this system, points awarded are standardized for every player, so that if player A built his university to level 40 before researching level 1 of centralization, and player B left his university at level 1 when researching the same level of centralization, then players A and B will receive exactly the same amount of points for researching the exact same technology, even though they spent a different amount of resources. This system is reminiscent of real-world market systems in that the value of something relies upon what the something is, and not how much was paid for it. For example: Muwe buys ten kilograms of a certain kind of grapes in Italy for fifty euros (architecture level 5, let's say), and Angela buys ten kilos of the same kind of grapes in California for ten euros(architecture 40). Both of them could sell the grapes at market in France for 100 euros, which is the real price of the grapes (architecture 0), even though Angela got a much better deal than Muwe. In game terms, the example goes like this: Muwe pays a total cost of 32,2 billion gold to take his espionage technology from level 0 to level 100, using a level 5 military university for every research, while Angela pays a total cost of 19.7 billion gold to perform the same research using a level 40 military university. They receive exactly the same effect from the research (because it has the same intrinsic value) even though Muwe paid nearly twice as much as Angela for it. (In fact, according to this system the research would have an intrinsic value of 35.4 billion gold, which is the cost to research it with no reductions from any source.) The strengths of this solution are that it is realistic, as I hope I have illustrated, it is mathematically simple, it would be easily integrable into the currently existing version of the game, it is standardized for every player, it allows for exact calculation of the amount of points one has (if one spends the time to dissect the system, that is), and it allows for a large degree of control over the amount of points one has (except for that pesky bonus chest, but you can disband those troops anyways). It introduces no new strategy nuances, but also does not break the game's balance; rather, it stabilizes it, if anything. The weakness of this system is that the advantage of having high-level universities, architecture levels, etc. is reduced, because under it, they only decrease the cost and time of things, and not the points gained from them.

3) I had a third option in mind, but I lost it somewhere between the first two and now I don't remember what it was. If it comes to me again I will put it up here. Just for reference, I started this post about ten seconds after I said I would in the thread you've forgotten about at the top of the post, so I hope you can forgive me for forgetting one small thing. It probably wouldn't have worked anyway.  *hmm*

Thanks for your patience with this one, I didn't mean to build such a wall of text. I hope you really consider it, because of the time and effort that went into this suggestion (and not just from me -- several other players contributed to this masterpiece), if for no other reason. We're really trying to help you make the game better here, because we care about its success, too. Otherwise we'd have quit ages ago.
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torveaux
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2014, 19:38:23 PM »

Hi, I'm just wondering if somehow this post got missed in the confusion. Usually by this point there's at least a "Thanks for your suggestion, it will be reviewed." Naturally we'd like more than just a review, but even a response would be nice.
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Muwe
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 07:05:46 AM »

Hi,

Indeed, I apologize, I missed the topic somehow.
The review that occurs on each suggestion is not made by the Global Moderators. Its made by the developers.
As its the case with the one here.

Thank you.
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Valar morghulis !
torveaux
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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 19:30:45 PM »

Thanks for admitting your mistake. That's a million times more courage than many people in similar positions have. Good day to you sir.
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deathruin
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 14:01:50 PM »

I wonder if type 3 was where it's ALL based on current level of university/architecture.
Fact is, a short coming of type 2 is that investment in universities and architecture would have a negative effect in that they increase your point w/o any direct power benefit. Certainly it helps you develop faster but as long as you are not "leading" in the realm, it also means it puts you in sight of the big wolves faster. Quite frankly, having fundamental development carry a penalty is not an awesome idea.

That said, there is also an issue with type 1: In that a pacifist would dominate his point range. If you fight, even if you play well and win, in anyway whatsoever, you will loss units, which means "empty" points. In the long run, even if you are extremely careful those will rack up. Now, again, this will not affect the players who are leading the realm, as they would be "up there" any how and lower points would not exactly help them. But for anyone who is in the middle range, a pacifist would have significantly better everything and should he ever turn into a fighter, it will be a long time before he can be defeated(probably takes a war so a bigger player can come down and do some damage). Similarly, it makes fortress upgrade and repair a bad thing, as you never want a field fight and chances are depending on your fortress alone would be risky to say the least. And should it ever get damaged, the repair would mean more empty points. Thus, I propose an alternative to it(maybe this is type 3? who knows)

Everything except fortress repair and units will work in the way of your type 1. But fortress repair doesn't add points and units are calculated separately(as in type 2 fashion). While I personally would not mind more points in the form of military units ever, I do understand some people might want to control their point rigorously(as you mentioned in the other post). As such, temple troops should be held in a temporary "locker room". They can stay there indefinitely until you mobilize any or all of them(you cannot do so when you are under attack) at which point their point value is taken into account and they are added to your army.


Sorry about the semi-necro. But I am looking for whether the point is based on base price, current price or "price when built". This is important on whether or not I should keep developing architecture and military university(note university produces happiness, so it can be considered as a "special statue" and thus doesn't really hurt. But architecture and military university have no powers of their own and would be a liability if it's all based on base price)
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