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Author Topic: Cannot build buildings  (Read 5095 times)
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SirLovesAlot
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« on: September 06, 2013, 19:50:12 PM »

I am unable to build any buildings.  I have more than enough resources - wood, iron, stone.  Building requires zero gold. 
I do in fact have a negative gold amount, and the Question Mark tells me that I need gold in the amount of how much I am negative.

I took out a bank loan knowing full well I would go negative, but since there was nothing that informed I could not build any buildings if I went negative, I assumed I could continue building.

If I had known in advance that I could not build without gold - even though it is not a resource required to build - then I would not have taken the loan.  This forces me into a position not of my own choosing.  It is not fair, and I consider it to be a bug.  If the building shows no gold is required to build it, then I should not need gold in my account.

Now I'm forced to sell resources (at prices I consider too low) in order to raise enough gold to get out of debt and/or I'm forced to either make my workers pay maximum taxes, which will eventually make them revolt and so lose the provinces, and/or I will need to keep selling resources, hindering my ability to do anything but work on paying the loan back.  I should not be penalized this way for doing something that came with no warning.  If this is a feature of the game, then the bank should not have let me take out a loan without being able to make the payments - and/or it should have warned me that if I go negative I will not be able to continue building buildings.
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 21:40:06 PM »

And now, because I have an overabundance of resources that I cannot use or sell due to this bug, I'm being attacked - in fact, there are two players attacking me simultaneously because of this bug.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 21:45:03 PM by SirLovesAlot » Logged
SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 21:50:58 PM »

Oh goody, I can't build armies either without gold.

I can't wait to find out that I can't repair my fortress once it gets destroyed in about a half hour from now.
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 22:03:25 PM »

This just gets better and better.  I can't move my army, I can't attack my attackers, I can do nothing except sit and wait and see how long it takes until I can't play the game anymore.  Wow.  Fun.  I'm so glad I invested all that time in this game.
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 03:55:49 AM »

Gee, 2 more incoming attacks.  That makes 4 so far.
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tock.a
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 12:17:55 PM »

When you are on negative gold you cant do nothing, you cant build, research or make new army. Sell all your resources and pay of the loan, open bank and u have option paying loan, and be carefull next time with gold keep your balance on plus by selling resources.
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2013, 05:59:40 AM »

You did a great job of summarizing my posts!

When will this bug be fixed, and when will my game be reset to it's pre-loan status or better - mathematically compensated to account for the 8 attacks so far, currently over a million in resources lost, military and net worth points; and of course the time and compounding I've lost and will continue to lose by not being able to build additional building & research levels.

My market is at the 8000 resources per sale level, so that is not a viable option (even if I thought it was fair to force me to sell resources as a workaround for this bug) and it currently has about 20 hours remaining before the offer I made expires unsold (I priced it a bit too high when there was zero stone on the market - apparently only for a minute or two).  Kind of stupid that I can't cancel my offer, but whatever; that's a poor design decision that we don't need to discuss in this context.

It will take about a week for the loan to pay itself back 8 million, and maybe another week or so for the negative balance to reach zero I'm guessing.  I'll be playing grepolis and other games while I wait it out the next 2 weeks or so, but will check-in from time to time to see how things are going and repair my fortresses on a regular basis though I'm not sure why I bother at this point, since currently there appears to be little interest in fixing this small but catastrophic situation for me.  I'll be looking for other games that are similar while I wait. 

I'd rather continue playing this game, but when something so simple to fix is considered "not a problem", I know I'm wasting my time on the wrong people.  So, am I wasting my time or will my game be fixed? 

I'm not looking to hear opinions from other players, I'm looking to hear from someone in a position of "authority".

Thanks
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tiger
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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2013, 11:14:00 AM »

Having negative gold prevents a lot of stuff, as you already realized. But taking loan was your decision. Puting a lot of stone very expensive also. You also spent gold from loan, so thats why you are going into minus. Before you went into minus, you should attack goldmines to keep your balance positive, and then you wouldnt have those problems. But this is not a bug. Also allies can help you by sending gold, which you can return later.
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tiger
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 11:43:50 AM »

If I explain the rules of chess to you but I do not tell you what all of the pieces can do - that the queen can move in any direction as many squares as she wants, the bishop only moves on diagonals, etc. then how can you be expected to have a fair chance of winning?  If I honestly forgot to tell you, then it is a mistake. (A software mistake is called a bug, or a design flaw).  If I intentionally do not tell you, then I have cheated.

The rules of this game state that gold is NOT required to build any buildings.  The rules are very clearly posted in the Town Hall building.  Do you deny that the rules of constructing buildings are posted in the Town Hall?

The depot building requires gold to build along with other resources.  None of the other buildings (or troops) require gold to build - only resources of wood, iron and stone as clearly posted in their respective areas.

When I borrowed that gold I was playing by rules of the game clearly posted in the Town Hall building.  I fully expected to be able to build houses, farms, troops, etc. using the resources I knew would continue to be produced after I spent the gold.  Since the rules stated no gold was required to build, I formed a strategy based on that fact.

Out of nowhere, this new rule came up, that was not posted anywhere.  If the Town Hall, Bank, Barracks or any other area that makes sense had stated "You cannot build any buildings or troops if your account balance is negative", then there would have been full disclosure of this hidden rule, and I would not have taken the loan.

The strategy I chose was based on the FACT as clearly posted that ZERO GOLD IS NEEDED TO BUILD TROOPS OR BUILDINGS.  If you disagree, then please take a look at the Town Hall and troop building areas and see for yourself.  Does it state gold is required to build?  Or does it say zero gold is required to build?

If you don't want to call it a bug, fine - the game has cheated by failing to disclose one of the rules of the game - you took my King only because I didn't know I could move my queen in any direction as many spaces as I want.

If the game had disclosed this rule prior to taking the loan, I would have chosen a different strategy.  So Tiger - you tell me... was it a mistake not to disclose this rule, or was it intentional?

Games are built to bring fun and enjoyment to the players.  Is that true of this game?  Do you believe that sitting and waiting for 2+ weeks doing nothing makes this game fun for me?
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tiger
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 13:11:11 PM »

http://www18.imperiaonline.org/imperia/game_v5/game/help/?page=economy&race=2&lang=en&speed=1
All is explained there. Under gold you have sentence... "If the treasury has negative gold balance (due to army upkeep), the player cannot build, research or recruit army until the negative balance is cleared." Same for sending attacks in other part of help.
And you must have minimum 0 gold to build, do you have that minimum? *Smiley*
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tiger
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 22:13:51 PM »

So, you expect a new player to research pages & pages & pages of help files in advance in order to play the game.  Now that's what I call fun!!!  Not. 

This is an obscure feature of the game, and while it may be documented (poorly) and buried in the help pages, as I stated in my first post - the bank should not have let me take out a loan without being able to make the payments - and/or it should have warned me that if I go negative I will not be able to continue constructing buildings.  This is important.    All good software issues warnings when you are about to do something potentially harmful and I should have been warned.

I'm willing to concede that because the information is documented (poorly), that it is not a bug it is now a feature request, no longer for myself, but so that others do not become ensnared in this same obscure trap.

However you failed to answer my question: Do you believe that sitting and waiting for 2+ weeks doing nothing makes this game fun for me?

If had the minimum balance of zero we wouldn't be having this discussion.

In regard to your previous suggestion of having an ally send it, even if they were willing it would take in excess of 40,000 wagons to pay back the current loan (down from 80,000 wagons since this discussion started).  The game is not viable in this regard.
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tiger
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 22:43:27 PM »

I apologize, but 99.9% of player know that you cant do most of stuff if you have negative gold...We cant have warnings for every stuff in-game, because then it wouldnt be a game, but automated system which will force players to just click in order which we want(or its optimal). When you took loan, didnt it say that you will have to pay back that amount + interest? And loan was taken, money spent and now the problem is how to return that money. Before you went negative, solution was to start attacking goldmines and get resources and gold to stay positive... it would be much easier if some gold was left from loan, not totally spent. Building higher markets before negative gold would help also... selling on prices which will surely sell, not 5x higher then average... When loan was taken, you should have some idea how to return it? All the was i mention are valid. Thre is also imperial market, where you can sell stuff imidietly for 5 diamonds... Allianc emembers cna send you gold you you wont have negative, then start attacking goldmines, build  markets...
There are few solutions... Do what i suggested or wait a week or so to get out of minus with trade... take 10 h bonus incoem when you will be able to sell it.. Make account in other realm, because there is 150 different realm and some started not long ago.
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tiger
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 15:01:38 PM »

I'm well aware that there are things I could have done if I had known that I couldn't do anything after I went negative.  You keep repeating things that are not relevant to my current situation.  Things I COULD have done in the PAST, if I had known about the restriction on building with a negative balance. 

I've already explained quite clearly that I didn't know I couldn't build additional buildings. How many times must I say it?  My original plan was to increase my population, build farms and houses to accommodate the increase and pay back the loan from additional tax revenues.  I would have annexed another province.  These things, which the game implies do not require gold to build, would have given me the additional gold I needed to pay back the loan.  My population has increased as planned, but I have no houses and the game doesn't allow me to employ the homeless as you know.  All of these things made perfect sense - if I could build with a negative balance.

Good software warns people that they are about to do something potentially extremely harmful.  Stopping the player from playing is extremely harmful.  Do you not agree?

What other things are there that will stop people from playing the game?  I want to know so that I can avoid them.  Or must I read 100 pages of rules to find out?

99% of players know they can't play if they go negative?  You've taken a survey? Or are you just making up numbers to justify this oversight and unwillingness to provide a simple warning message?

Your solutions are:  Stop playing for 2 weeks, play another game, or hope that someone else will take pity on you and bail you out.  You believe that's a well designed game?  Really?
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tiger
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 15:52:17 PM »

I apologize, but how can you know all small details about anything if you didnt read 100 pages of helps... and you are not interested in that... if we put every small detail and warning into game, instead of How to play, we will get game which have 100 of pages of text... and as you dont like that, others dont like that.  Game have learning period - where you learn on your own mistakes or read How to play. Depends on player.
I am guessing wild, because you are second player from when i work in IO which have that problem. *Smiley*
I am sory on your situation, but this isnt the fault of game. And i just offered you solution which could help you next time or even this time(alliance members sending gold).
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tiger
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SirLovesAlot
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 05:29:26 AM »

You're just being obstinate because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

This is a critical item.  It adds one line of text - not hundreds.  I asked you "What other things are there that will stop people from playing the game?"  What are these other critical items that will require 100 pages of text to warn people?  I'm listening...

You only know of 1 other person because only 1 other complained.  For every 1 person that complains, 1000 others experience the same issue but do not complain.  It is statistics.

I don't need solutions that will help me next time, I've already been bitten by the snake and I died.  It's too late for me.  The game set a trap for me, I fell in.  Now I'm stuck.  You accomplished your goal of making an unhappy player.  Good job!

Begging other alliance members to send me their gold is not viable for 3 reasons.  1) They need their gold to play the game and 2) transporting millions in gold requires many wagons, time and resources.  Why should they interrupt their game for me?  3) The other players in my alliance are mostly smaller than me.  It would take them just as long, or longer to build wagons, generate gold and send it.  By that time, I will have recovered. 

Of course by that time, I may have moved on to some other game that doesn't penalize me with 2 weeks of downtime for not reading one line of poorly written obscure text buried among a hundred other pages.  Time will tell.
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