Nomads Vs imperian

[nekodrugi]

Late edit: Huh, i started writing this post as simple question but it ended up as my observations on how V5 works. Feel free to move it to general discussion if you like.

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Now that IO forced Nomads to be farmers (spending most if not all resources on farms) can anybody tell me when exactly nomads are better than Imperians 

I know that VERY early in game nomads would still have a bit faster population growth, that their army is still cheaper BUT weaker . . . . . .


BUT
Is that all what nomads would have. Sure once nomads get to elite they would have some bonus for their paladins (never like cataphracts name) but IS THAT enough??

Nomads economy is capped at 200k population, nomad army is cheaper BUT weaker and army upkeep is lower but that is compensated by bigger army, nomads fort is weaker etc

Imperians have slower but NON LIMITED population growth, imperians have stronger but more expensive army, imperians have stronger AND SAME COST siege engines, imperians have stronger fort AND bonus on stone production and if i remember well they have some bonuses on researches.

This is how i see the game so far

I play on 2 realms r82 and r84. R82 is TOTALLY destroyed because of early bugs but MAINLY because of gift systems where people misused it to maximum possible extent so R82 is not a good example to say this or that is good or bad in game except to say gift system was good idea but terrible implementation.

I saw armies with over 850 trebs, over 1k ballistaes over 140k elite archers over 170k heavy swords PLUS other large army. I'm very VERY effective player and i grow much faster than "regular" players but STILL it's impossible for me to build that much of siege units PLUS other units + few F8 + researches that they have. But this "gift" system help imperian to catch up too. I saw some imperians FLY by me and ended in top 20 without any troubles.

During gift season i went from around 40 position in net point to almost 100. I spoke with some players and they admitted to me that their large army and HUGE growth is from gifts.  So let's dismiss r82 as any reliable measurement how good or bad most of the things are in IO.

From another side R84 is not ruined by gifts system that much. Maybe few players misused it but most of us play in r82 AND r84 and diamonds were spent mainly in r82

So looking at r84 i must say that i can clearly see that difference between Nomads and Imperian are very small almost non existent.

I have a member in alliance that is Imperian and i'm nomad. He started 2 weeks after me and right now we are almost same with points. Both of us don't use diamonds. Sure i did lost some army fighting early in the game but he also lost some army.

So I'm seeing first hand imperian growing fast day after day and while we would be "equal" for some time eventually he would outrun me if nothing than because of his economy.

Before in V5 it was clear cut. You want to be farmer take imerian and spend time collecting resources and building farms and your small houses. Building strong forts is their fun and having damn strong defensive army. They should also get an option to even plant flowers if they want it BUT

Nomads are warriors, we DON'T care of farms and we DON'T care of high economy at the end of era. People choose nomads mainly because of that. i know i did and i know A LOT of people choose nomads NOT TO care of that.

Now with newly implemented changes (plus some before) we are getting to look like imperians. The clear line that separate nomads and imperians is fading away making advantage that imperians have bigger and bigger every day.

For very long time and even now i COULDN'T understand people complaining about how imperians are forced to build farms and houses, that their army is more expensive and upkeep higher.

And worst of all they are very loud. THEY choose imperian the same way i choose nomad. They choose to have SLOW but steady growth i choose fast and furious FULLY knowing i would die eventually from hand of some MONSTER imperian. But i choose to have a fun for as long as i can and they choose to have fun building forts and farms and their small houses.

But what is done is done. I strongly doubt this post would make ANY  difference and i guess i'm venting out because i hate to be bothered with building farms.

I only wonder why IO didn't remember to give to all "dissatisfied" imperians a chance to transfer their accounts to nomads accounts and vice verse and in doing that IO would earn some nice money too.

let's say for 50 diamonds in first 3 months you can choose to change ONCE your race. Math is simple so if you had 1000 swords you would suddenly have 1500 etc. but THERE IS NO WAY BACK.

If you don't like imperians and you don't like nomads than something is wrong with you and you should search for other game. This one obviously is not for you.

Well enough of me venting out. Now all imperian can jump on me creaming bloody murder.

[pzkpfw5]

totally agree with you...but those "some bonuses on researches"...are actually 25% ...i agree we have bonus construction time but how many forts can you build and for what?..o sorry i forgot you have to build farms

[nekodrugi]

totally agree with you...but those "some bonuses on researches"...are actually 25% ...i agree we have bonus construction time but how many forts can you build and for what?..o sorry i forgot you have to build farms

My forts cost the same if i remember well but if i want to PRODUCE stone i would be in HUGE trouble. Than again i wrote i'm very efficient and i feed from "other" sources such as goldmines and other players so i never ever had trouble with stone. Tough i manage to build ONE f8 after looooong time collecting, robbing, stealing, buying stone.

Also you miss my point. I was TOTALLY ok with bonuses Imperians have. 25% is HUGE if you ask me, bonus in stone production is HUGE, and unlimited population growth is HUGE but i was ok with that.

As i wrote i was aware some monster imperian would kill me around 2/3 of the game (or try to kill me) and i was ok that imperians would rule the realm at the end.

My point is different. IO put some very "funny" limits on nomads to compensate for imperians slow growth. Right now i have all my elite units so very soon you would see me CHARGING Imperian F8 with my elite cavalry and weak trebs.

Ahhh yes, that wont happen. Cavalry have ONLY 2x less hit points when attacking fort so they actually die like flies in fort siege so i have to build heavy swords to go against F8. And you can see i don't mention phalanx and guardians.

And God damn i was ok with that too. knew that was coming. What i didn't know is that i would become farmer and that i would spend ALL of my resources on farms. Day after day after day after day. . . . .

[sheridon]

nomads right now ARE imperians, the entry page to this game says totally realistic model bla bla bla, but nomad situation now is not realistic at all. the mongols never had to worry about houses, a nomad is a nomad, they just tried to satisfy the crying imperians and made the nomads imperians as a result.  now noone will play nomad because its just a weaker version of imperian, better said its just an imperian that never went to school 

[crass]

no they didnt need to worry about houses but they sure needed to worry about food  since they nomad and move around cant farm so gotta scrounge  and land can only support just so much scrounging before its desolate and ure people are all starving i think if they changed farm  to make foodstuffs and get rid of the  pop cap  make caps relative to food stores  have soo much food on hand ure pop grows  no food it falls  then nomads could get food  increase pop but always having to raid for more food were imperians can make thier food

[nekodrugi]

now noone will play nomad because its just a weaker version of imperian, better said its just an imperian that never went to school 

 

I piss in my pants laughing

[nekodrugi]

no they didnt need to worry about houses but they sure needed to worry about food  since they nomad and move around cant farm so gotta scrounge  and land can only support just so much scrounging before its desolate and ure people are all starving i think if they changed farm  to make foodstuffs and get rid of the  pop cap  make caps relative to food stores  have soo much food on hand ure pop grows  no food it falls  then nomads could get food  increase pop but always having to raid for more food were imperians can make thier food

When you think seriously of your suggestion i must say that's actually one very good suggestion.

[crass]

thx good to know i do get a good 1 now and then   

[numpty]

this is total irony, i was complaining that farms are ridiculously expensive about 2 months ago, now nomad players complain of the same thing.  my next farm level in a province costs 8M wood, how much does farm level 12 cost to nomad?  my cheapest farm anywhere is 1 million wood. 
you all complain imperians are uber-race but i was pillaged every opportunity possible over the last month orso by the bad guys, therefore that unlimited growth is theoretical cause anytime an imperian starts growing too fast or increasing too many points someone will fry them.

if instead of complaining you just went and burned an imperian, the faster growth rate would be a non-issue.  oh and btw nomad cavalry has pillage power of +6, its real, real easy to go and fry my population with a very small amount of horses.  20k cataphracts does max damage on a prov over 200k, imagine what 50k cavalry archers does to a 350k pop imperian prov.  and one last thing, i have a massive pop rate, with high med and farms everywhere and it took me 4-5 days to recover from pillage.  how long does it take a nomad to recover from a pillage?  i see nomad players with 1000 points and 200k pop, i dont think the inequity really is that big and i think in r82 a nomad will likely win the individual race....

[Star Blade]

Numpty - sorry to disapoint You but I complitelly agree with nekodrugi.

I counted it severall time - we have similiar discusion on polish forum and numbers always worked for Imperians.

Be it growth rate, be it army or whatever You choose.

For me Game looks like this:
2-3 months of advantage for Nomads (up till Nomads reach 200k pop). Afterwards - long supremacy of Imperians. And nothing can stop this unless some mayor changes in Game Mechanics are made. Many things needs to be fixed to avoid supremacy of Imperians.

To give one example is bonus for research of Imperians. Faster research means faster colonization - but how are Nomads going to catch up with Imperians with their 200k pop cap if they can't even colonize more provinces? Because this is Imperians who have bonus for faster research... It should be complitelly oposite... But this is only 1 thing from a long list of adjustments which I think should be made.

I am going to do the list of adjustment in the at least half of the era when all features are going to work (colonization, alliance castles etc.) because it is hard for me to propose anything when the enviroment of Game is changing every week. Or some features do not work till now... but coming back to the topic.

What I found particullary funny is that it is mostly Imperians who complain (and complain a lot) about Nomads - but hardly any Nomad complain. Probably since only few can think about not only today, but tommorow as well... and next week as well...

But what is funny - in new polish realm around 80% are Imperians... and I don't think because they can't count - but because they know that Imperians are stronger.

I played Imperians in Blitz and Alpha - now I play Nomad in Beta (mostly to compare and because I tho after playing Blitz that Nomads are harder to play) but now I know for sure - play Imperian if You want to be in good places in statistics in the end of realm. I think that in the end almost none nomad will be at top 20, unless Nomads start to permamently, every week, pillage all Imperians for 30%. This is only salvation which I see for Nomads...

[Argie]

Now that IO forced Nomads to be farmers (spending most if not all resources on farms) can anybody tell me when exactly nomads are better than Imperians 

Building few levels of farms is not making you a farmer...and playing as an Imperian does not make you less a warrior and more farmer...

Nomad army is cheaper to make and to support; you say it is weak but Cataphact and Cataphact Archers are cheap and very efficient; plus Nomads do have a more efficient pillage than the Imperians (30% is to much, why not lower it to 20% for Nomads or Imperians advance to 30% to play even  ).
While Imperians build houses and farms all the time from the beginning of the Era in order to have that growth you claim, Nomads in the same time can make a lot of troops and keep frying them... Have you ever calculate that in order to achieve an Imperian your 200k Nomad population how much he has spent in farms and houses? also the time he need to do that? Maybe since you have not pay for farms and houses you have used your resources to raise army? and to fry some poor Imperians...

Imperians advance? They reseach 25% faster but Nomads build 15% faster... what stops you if you want cheap and fast researches to build more university levels? Or the Imperians could research more levels of Architecture to build faster...
Now that you are "forced" to make few levels of farms do you believe that during the time you will build them; that the Imperians can make armies that can kick some Nomads buts? I doubt that in that short time and also in the near future, just check top 20 in R82 and there is only 5 Imperians...

Imperians do have 20% stone production bonus but also their Fortresses are 10% more expensive (plus they can garrison only 50% of Nomads troops).
Imperian military mission is 30% more expensive than that of the Nomads. You pay less moving upkeep...
And last Nomad barracks’ capacity is 100% bigger than the Imperian one, with same level of barracks you train double troops than the Imperian also in shorter time than him and with a very efficient pillage...

Finally i do not see Imperians complain just Nomads because they have to build few farms 

[nekodrugi]

Building few levels of farms is not making you a farmer...and playing as an Imperian does not make you less a warrior and more farmer...

Nomad army is cheaper to make and to support; you say it is weak but Cataphact and Cataphact Archers are cheap and very efficient; plus Nomads do have a more efficient pillage than the Imperians (30% is to much, why not lower it to 20% for Nomads or Imperians advance to 30% to play even  ).
While Imperians build houses and farms all the time from the beginning of the Era in order to have that growth you claim, Nomads in the same time can make a lot of troops and keep frying them... Have you ever calculate that in order to achieve an Imperian your 200k Nomad population how much he has spent in farms and houses? also the time he need to do that? Maybe since you have not pay for farms and houses you have used your resources to raise army? and to fry some poor Imperians...

Imperians advance? They reseach 25% faster but Nomads build 15% faster... what stops you if you want cheap and fast researches to build more university levels? Or the Imperians could research more levels of Architecture to build faster...
Now that you are "forced" to make few levels of farms do you believe that during the time you will build them; that the Imperians can make armies that can kick some Nomads buts? I doubt that in that short time and also in the near future, just check top 20 in R82 and there is only 5 Imperians...

Imperians do have 20% stone production bonus but also their Fortresses are 10% more expensive (plus they can garrison only 50% of Nomads troops).
Imperian military mission is 30% more expensive than that of the Nomads. You pay less moving upkeep...
And last Nomad barracks’ capacity is 100% bigger than the Imperian one, with same level of barracks you train double troops than the Imperian also in shorter time than him and with a very efficient pillage...

Finally i do not see Imperians complain just Nomads because they have to build few farms 

I read first few paragraphs from your reply and i just had to react immediately. Make no mistake i read your post till the end.

Do you know what's the worst farmers nightmare 

What do they hate more than everything 

What makes them commit mass harakiri (Seppuku) 






PILLAGE



And pillage is THE FIRST thing imperans are complaining of. Their strong card is nomad pillage. Well yes we have all this lovely bonuses but YOU CAN PILLAGE US 

Even tough I as nomad did 4 FRIENDLY pillages till now i understood i represent very high potential threat (not to say we are almost like terrorists) to imperians so, as nomad that finally saw the light

I suggest that we increase farm costs for nomads and reduce maximum population to 150k, that we totally remove pillage as option.

To balance obvious superiority of nomads (i was not aware of it before argie show me the way) i also suggest that we increase poor imperian barracks capacity, reduce army upkeep, reduce army price but keep the strength and reduce fort cost for at least 10%.

If that's not enough i suggest we tax every nomad with 10% flat tax that would go to imperians as compensation.

[numpty]

it´s silly to disagree, in the end we will know what happens and who is mostly right (no one will be completely right).   Take away statistics and insert human decision making, i still think a nomad will win the era in net points, nothinig better than to wait and see what happens. 

i also think this era will still be played in 2012, era 1 GW was neverending, probably will happen here also.  so much still has to happen, colonization, alliance castles, i think imperians will be decisive in castle phase cause of unit strength and upkeep, but as is right now, pillaging takes away growth rates imbalance cause you cant stay online 24 hours a day and you cant stop the pillaging, especially while you sleep....

[kikiriki]

hah the thing that pisses me off isnt farms but the strength of nomad army.... my strongest attacking unit on fortress walls are heavy swordsman, who have weaker attack and less hit points then imperian basic swordsman.... wtf? and the other thing, 10k of guardians decimates 100k of nomad heavy spearmen... ok, i now that they are "elite", best warriors in the empire etc, but arm an angry mob of 100k people with clubs and torches and they wold simply overrun elite guard.... just not realistic....

[Star Blade]

This discusion is really silly guys.

Firstly - none of You provided opinion (either me as well ) with some mathematic calculations. If You want I can quote same discusion we had on polish forum about strenght of armies where I have proved mathematically (and by simulations on BC) that Imperians have much stronger elite army and much cheaper then Nomads - in both terms of cost to build and cost to upkeep.

So when I read what Argie wrote - I go like this:  then  and then... (again Imperians complain but they negate the facts... )

Sorry but please try to back up Your opinion with actually data from the game.

One more comment. This week changes in pop growth again favoured Imperians - since Nomads and Imperians pay same for each lvl of Farms (someone wrote that Nomads have cheaper farms ) but for Nomads bonus is 5% and for Imperians 10% (so who has better? ), and I think this is obvious why Nomads should complain... It means that at least some of them can count (or I hope they can ).

To little sum up differences beetwen races in terms of pop growth it looks like this:
or You have max pop cap 200k, a little bit faster growth in the beginning but very little efective farms or
You have slower growth, better farms, no max pop count but You have to spend in the beginning quite a lot on houses

The choice is Yours. Anyone who can counts will choice to pay more but have unlimited pop growth and overall - much more population than Nomads.

And I remind all that Imperians from beginning always were considered as a race with less pop then Nomads, more expensive army but more efficient (read the descriptions of races).
But actually it is oposite - Imperians have more pop then Nomads, they have bonuses to production and they have stronger and cheaper units then Nomads...

I think somewhere in the planning proces of the balance of races it went complitelly wrong... I would even say very wrong. Because all facts negate what asumptions of races were. So there is a lot of things to be done to balance more the races.

And 1 more thing - balancing races doesn't mean we should now for example make some hasty changes. This has to be really thought over because we can balance them more by making Nomads more economicall or more warrior alike. It really depends on concept of Author. But for the time being - Imperians are a lot more stronger then Nomads. You will see it after February that Imperians are overpowering poor Nomads.

So Numpty I think we will not need to wait till end of era - I think in about 1,5 month it should be clearer