Balance of races? When?

[Batista]

The topic is perfect for discussions and I applaud, but I will discuss balance with people with experience from realm 84. It is the less affected by all unbalances one, the realm where no player was able to get advantage, simply because the major changes (the resources in the independent provinces, the requirements for elite and heavy units etc) were made when top 84 accounts were far from this stage.   

I agree with Sheremetev that many stuff we could talk here will only have its objective result in a later stage of the realms, but we can still make our predictions and suggestions.

Suggestions ... I can count quite good but it's only maths. Let's think logically - logic is one of the oldest since of all I think.

Nomad units lets take simple archers. Actually they are twice as cheap, twice as weak then imperian archers but is it all what should be changed? Do they have only those two statistics? I agree they are twice as cheap, they are twice as weak but do they have twice less cargo, unkeep and pillage power? No. They even have more pillage power ... which is interesting. Nomads have this ability to pillage 30% of peasants which is quite a lot and they gain a lot more gold so why the unkeep is 4 times lower and not 2 times or maybe less?

Let's take a building ... a farm for example. OK nomads have farms and imperians have farms and houses so you made two buildings not one. The costs of farms should be the same so when you make an other building for imperians you should lower the price for them on farms and add something to houses. Ex lvl 1: nonad farm 3000 wood, 300 iron, 600 stone ... imperian farm 2000 wood, 200 iron, 300 stone + a house on same lvl 1000 wood, 100 iron, 300 stone and the max catapicity same for all after which population growth stops if you do not build next lvl, next lvl 2 times more expensive. OK - we have some prices, some lvls ... we can make some more differences. A nomad farm for example should have 33% more space ... so what we should do? Lower the prices for imperians by 33%. If you want to change population max, growth it should look like example above but when you give some race 2 as much population lower their productivity ...

Everything should be balanced ... what we have ingame I would't call balance. Rather things here are strange ... nomads have higher population growth (2 x current population /1000 [here should be +50 - I know]) but the second race has not such a bonus in productivity (2x current production /1000 - something like that)? OK, imperians have stone but it doesn't fit here at all ... rather it is a strange idea because if for ex. 50% of players playing imperians sell stone the prices will be very low on market which makes a very huge difference because they almost loose their "bonus" on market (they do not have any bonus to gold for selling stone).

And much, much more ... think a little bit logically and check what we have ingame. Examples (simple) are above but the one which shows that something is not right is shown in my first post.

Yovanna this bonus with resources in inderpendent provinces was the same for all players ... requirement for elite, heavy units - same for all on each realm in the same time. Some used it some not ... it is only the case of how do people play. The difference between realms is that on this second one things will be the same like on 82nd realm but people will need more time (less resources in inderpendent provinces).

Predictions ... if you change nothing ingame it is rather sure that even those imperians from TOP will loose their positions sooner or later. Some of them had high levels of fortresses in inderpendant provinces which they have annected and it gave them a lot of points. A lot of nomads which have same amount of points annected inderpendant provinces with lower levels of fortress. Points are "illusion" in this game ... to show the real power of an account just change the formula of points for annexing provinces.

[yovanna]

Yovanna this bonus with resources in inderpendent provinces was the same for all players ...

It was. But nomads were the first to take advantage and loot their provinces with the millions of resources in there. And this created a giant difference between top 20 82 nomad players and the whole other part of the realm. This was the most evident moment of disbalance which, sadly, made the competition and the fair play impossible.

[Batista]

It was. But nomads were the first to take advantage and loot their provinces with the millions of resources in there. And this created a giant difference between top 20 82 nomad players and the whole other part of the realm. This was the most evident moment of disbalance which, sadly, made the competition and the fair play impossible.

So ... that was the reason why you have made this change. I was thinking that you have done that because too many people sold iron because of proportions in inderpendant provinces and the market went crazy. You solved one problem (with market) but have you ever wondered why do nomads attack side provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? I have an idea why ... they do not build farms and houses and put a lot of ressources on army, they do not care about population growth too much since the beggining they have an advantage in it and in population/production. That is why they attack sooner higher levels of fortress in inderpendant provinces ... this timer which is now ingame only slows down things a little bit but the problem stays rather unsolved ...

Edit: I promised somebody  not to make any problems on international forum and not to write more controversial things so you can discuss things here but ... without me. I know that whatever I write it won't change anything, I do not even belive that you will think about things I wrote above in this topic. 

[nekodrugi]

I know that whatever I write it won't change anything, I do not even belive that you will think about things I wrote above in this topic. 

You would be surprised.

I also had a same opinion and than i saw that they do listen. But don't expect they would listen everything you say 

[fragmaster]

Guys ,i notice players post obvious solutions  to obvious problems.U think they dont listen,yet u discuss it on trivial level ,and complexity of balance disables any other discussion complexity but trivial and simple.Nobody is guilty for that.No one said players arent smart enough to help,but forum isnt best place for that.Its hard to be done on forum,i even think impossible.Someone must write entire book(not 5 paragraphs) to give compact suggestion core suggestion,saying growth is bad wont solve anything.Math model of realm existence is too complex.In such case ,only empiric data collection can give results and prove things.More empiric data they have (a lot of realistic situations where players have most probability of encountering again) ,more tweaks programmers can make.Solution is not in removing race buffs,but making timeline in such manner that races arent better/worse,just different.

What is useful information and good suggestion ? I will try to be constructive here:

What players must understand is that programmers are smart people .They have strong logic ,otherwise they cannot be programmers.Most of things that are written here on forum as "suggestion" are simply out of date.Programmers are aware of most (if not all) things before players are,therefore repeating what problem is doesnt help.Players are helping on wrong place .

So what is right place to help?-provide empiric data they do need ,share ur first 20 days in r84.

"hello,i play r84,from day one ,im imperian ,and i use credits and i have difficulties ,on day 7 i was attacked ,my build order was medicine,medicine,medicine,fort,fort,centralisation ,i was hit by nomad by xxxx swordsmen ,there is no build order to prevent that rush ,first 7 days of realm arent balanced.I suggest level 3 fort is cheaper for imperians."

"Im nomad ,i want to talk about early game military medicine,and i dont like term "best build order" .There is no point in making it very  very early ,because other things are better.I would like military medicine have 25% discount for first 7 levels."

"im sick of artillery ,can i pay 1 credit instead of playing it?"


But please stick to realistic situations ,not imaginary province head to head compare in some random world.Explain your position,researches,account strength ,one enemy for example,and explain how he is not better player,but yet he has terrible advantages.Tell your networth ,his networth,his activities,what he does,what u do ,and whats wrong.

I dont like overall nomads=early game,imperians=late game balance,and minor changes on right places can make every race survivable at any moment.

[samyoboy]

..

Edit: I promised somebody  not to make any problems on international forum and not to write more controversial things so you can discuss things here but ... without me. I know that whatever I write it won't change anything, I do not even belive that you will think about things I wrote above in this topic. 

Your suggestions are welcome so please make them. You say you are a trusted member so please make suggestions and set example on how things can be discussed without claiming you won't be listened to or demanding instant changes. Polite straight forward suggestions and discussions is way forward.

[yovanna]

So ... that was the reason why you have made this change. I was thinking that you have done that because too many people sold iron because of proportions in inderpendant provinces and the market went crazy. You solved one problem (with market) but have you ever wondered why do nomads attack side provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? I have an idea why ... they do not build farms and houses and put a lot of ressources on army, they do not care about population growth too much since the beggining they have an advantage in it and in population/production. That is why they attack sooner higher levels of fortress in inderpendant provinces ... this timer which is now ingame only slows down things a little bit but the problem stays rather unsolved ...

Edit: I promised somebody  not to make any problems on international forum and not to write more controversial things so you can discuss things here but ... without me. I know that whatever I write it won't change anything, I do not even belive that you will think about things I wrote above in this topic. 

You are way underestimating me and the whole IO team. Firstly, I can think about all you say and still not agree with you. My job is to think globally and always consider multiple sides of the issue. You ask me have I ever think about why nomads attack provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? Do you really think the game you play is made by straight-line people with suspicious intelligence? I doubt it, it would be really sad. Real discussion died with this particular post of yours, but I will still expose my point of view, as an admin, not as a player (players are always disappointed, and even I am not an exception).

Nomads have their flash start. They don't have houses and, to be honest, farms are ignorable. So, every other day they have extra resource for army. Army is trained faster, so attacking your own provinces isn't such a big deal. They loot the resources faster and develop faster, but it's still in the beginning. I stress on "beginning" because nomads are able to hit the limit for approximately a month, which means that their individual province development will stop 10 times earlier than supposedly the Imperian one.

Imperians have a slower start - population grows slowly, army is trained slowly, army is expensive and hard to build, but Imperians' units are 2 times stronger in comparison with the Nomads' soldiers, so I see no imbalance especially here. Yes,  they build houses every 2 or 3 days and need the farms to enhance the pop. growth, but with exactly because of these houses they are able to have 300k population (just an example) when Nomads have just 200k and this will really give them big advantages in production.

For me and for the whole IO team in charge of this project balance does not mean equality. Both races have advantages and disadvantages, but different, that is all the race module is about. Balance (or lack of balance) in IO II is a long term concept and can (sadly for our curiosity) be estimated at the end of the eras or at least in a later stage.

[nekodrugi]

You are way underestimating me and the whole IO team. Firstly, I can think about all you say and still not agree with you. My job is to think globally and always consider multiple sides of the issue. You ask me have I ever think about why nomads attack provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? Do you really think the game you play is made by straight-line people with suspicious intelligence? I doubt it, it would be really sad. Real discussion died with this particular post of yours, but I will still expose my point of view, as an admin, not as a player (players are always disappointed, and even I am not an exception).

Nomads have their flash start. They don't have houses and, to be honest, farms are ignorable. So, every other day they have extra resource for army. Army is trained faster, so attacking your own provinces isn't such a big deal. They loot the resources faster and develop faster, but it's still in the beginning. I stress on "beginning" because nomads are able to hit the limit for approximately a month, which means that their individual province development will stop 10 times earlier than supposedly the Imperian one.

Imperians have a slower start - population grows slowly, army is trained slowly, army is expensive and hard to build, but Imperians' units are 2 times stronger in comparison with the Nomads' soldiers, so I see no imbalance especially here. Yes,  they build houses every 2 or 3 days and need the farms to enhance the pop. growth, but with exactly because of these houses they are able to have 300k population (just an example) when Nomads have just 200k and this will really give them big advantages in production.

For me and for the whole IO team in charge of this project balance does not mean equality. Both races have advantages and disadvantages, but different, that is all the race module is about. Balance (or lack of balance) in IO II is a long term concept and can (sadly for our curiosity) be estimated at the end of the eras or at least in a later stage.

Plus K for your post.

I have absolutely the same opinion as you above and if anybody took enough time (like i did with battle simulator) he/she would realize that every race have its own advantages and disandvantages.

I like nomads and play with them but if i play with Imperials i wouldn't be disappointed (maybe a bit bored at the beginning). My strategy would change a little bit but that's about it.

Case in point is that i successfully "advised" my Imperial player that is now growing VERY fast. Overall strategy for nomads and imperials is more or less the same. Differences between them are still not so drastic.

Later in the game we would learn if imperians got too much power. So far, what i can see, that's not the case. Same goes for Nomads. Trust me, as a strong nomad i'm not going around killing imperials with no trouble.

If i want to go after good (strong) nomad or imperial i need war otherwise loss of army is too big to justify any resource you take.

[redborg]

if the game is so imbalance then its simple everyone will just go to the imbalanced side.

we will see what happens

[Batista]

Yovanna: I am not underestimating you or any of your friends from IO team. You are smart CM and a very good player (sadly you have finished playing on your imperian account on r82 as far as I know). The way I write things is an other thing ... english is my third language (of four) so take some corrections on things which you read. I have written some things which you may find as unkind, impolite - I'm very sorry, it won't happen again   You also wrote something that made me rather sad:

The topic is perfect for discussions and I applaud, but I will discuss balance with people with experience from realm 84.

Which as I understand means that I can't give you any useful information, suggestions, ideas about balance only because I do not play on realm 84. Interesting and sad in one.

Balance (or lack of balance) in IO II is a long term concept and can (sadly for our curiosity) be estimated at the end of the eras or at least in a later stage.

That is the information I actually needed. One year of tests ... quite a lot just to balance races. I think there are faster ways - realm with x4 speed lasts 3 months and should give you almost all necessary information about balance. What will happen when you see that something is wrong after one year on normal speed era? Next era - next year of tests (which results actually can be the same)? That would be quite a lot. The longer we play, the longer players see that nomads have the advantage (mostly expirenced players will choose them on new servers), the harder it will be to balance the races because those who do not know a lot about game (fresh players) will choose imperians (some will choose nomads for sure but it doesent matter). But it is only my opinion.

For me and for the whole IO team in charge of this project balance does not mean equality. Both races have advantages and disadvantages, but different, that is all the race module is about.

I would check if the both races have a real chance for equality ingame. Theory is that imperians can over grow nomads economicaly - they can for sure and I do not doubt it. But it is only theory ... in practice things rather do not look so promising. It is not a problem to gain 300.000 in capital but there is serious problem to gain such an amount in side provinces. Even if you manage to get those 250.000 people per province (an example) after only one pillage you will loose about 80.000 people per province so it is quite a lot. My sugestion: Change the formula responsible for growth of imperians from: 1.0 x (amount of people pew province)/1000+50 to 1.2 x .... or 1.1 x .... or change the bonus for nomads from 30% to 20%. Pillages are too deadly for imperians for sure.

Some people fight for economic results ... points for them are important so they try their best. Every player has a map and there are some Forts in inderpendant provinces. If everybody had the same levels of Forts there would be no problem at all but when you get a map with low levels things start to be more compicated ... less resources, less points for annection. Only the difference between Fort lvl 5 and Fort lvl 6 is 7000 points (I have not counted yet how much is the difference beetween Fort lvl 6 and Fort lvl 7 but I think it is quite a lot). For me it is rather a strange idea ... when you annect Fort lvl 5 and get Fort lvl 4 but the points for annection are counted 4x Fort lvl points + points for the rest of buildings (correct me if I am wrong). When you have a lot of Forts lvl 7 in 3rd circle it is very good - if you have only Forts lvl 6 it is not so good ... a lot depends on luck and I do not think it should be like that. 1x Forts lvl + the rest of buildings ok ... but 4x Forts + rest of buildings is too much.

Samyoboy: PM.

OK. Thank you for your attention ... that was really my last post here. I wish you a nice discussion.

[nekodrugi]

Batista,

I'm sorry but i just cant agree with you. Yovanna was right when she spoke of R84 because they fixed bugs and level some things out BEFORE R84 started. So players from 84 would have better "view" on how ballanced game actually is.

Early in the game (r82) you could gain HUGE resoruces and HUGE advantage by misusing some game bugs. I also grow like mushroom back then but i tough that's how they set the game. Unfortunately i start 2 weeks later so i wasn't able to use "the bug" to full extent. BUT you don't see me complaining why i can't be in No1 or even No20 place by net points.

The game is beta so those "things" happens.

BUT

Proof that they did "right" thing to balance races is this (R84)




I was VERY surprised when i saw Imperian on 1st place by net points. So MAYBE they gave too much of "balance" to Imperian. Or maybe not? We are too early in the game to give any definitive answer to that.

As a bottom line i do believe you don't have much ground for your claims. Maybe the game is "hard" to you and you see no "way out" but obviously some other Imperians are doing just fine.

[HerrSchultze]

the game is probably way to long just for a beta, its like its a year long experiment, and maybe even all balance probs won't get fixed for next era

[yovanna]

Which as I understand means that I can't give you any useful information, suggestions, ideas about balance only because I do not play on realm 84. Interesting and sad in one.

Sure you can expose your opinion, no matter where you play, the forum is the right place to say and suggest whatever you consider appropriate. I just meant that realm 82 is already too imbalanced and the lack of balance there is not due to the races but to the major changes we'd made. So, having this lack of balance it would be hard to constructively consider the probable imbalanced races. 

[numpty]

balance or no balance, imperians have huge costs of farms and houses.  i have never played nomad but imperians have to be patient farmers cause the 1st circle provs once you get over 100k pop you need to start making farms everywhere almost daily.  i spent many millions today on farms just to get pop growth over 100/hour and the 1st circle provs have only 120k population.  i will never get to 200k in 1st circle, the cost of farms would be excessive, my next farm costs almost as much or more than level 20 university, thats just absurd...

IMO this will end up being changed cause i will only get to 200k pop next fall cause i just cant make enough farms whereas nomads get to 200k quite easily judging by some low point nomads i have seen whilst farming....

[nekodrugi]

i have never played nomad but imperians have to be patient farmers

 

THE BEST by far explanation of imperians 

Farmers play imperians those that love to fight play nomads.

Cant understand why you complain???