Balance of races? When?

[Batista]

We have counted few things with my friends and we have only one question - when will you balance the races? They are not balanced yet ... why do we think so? Here we go - first example:

A nomad to gain 200.000 per province needs a farm on lvl 6 ... he will get such an amount sooner or later:

 200.000 people, 15th lvl of medicine, farm only lvl 6 !!! - gives 73 people per hour, terrain plains.

An imperian on the other hand:

 200.000 people, 15th lvl of medicine, farm lvl 9 !!! and 29 lvls of houses - gives 53 people per hour, terrain plains. (count the costs yourself - only lvl9 of farm costs with architecture lvl 15 sth about 2 mln od ressources )

We can give more of examples ... we have plenty of them ...

[Batista]

Nomads: +10 morale in attack on an imperian, +10% to pillage, +20% gold from pillage ... do you need much more examples or is it enough? 

[samyoboy]

nomads can't go ver 200k population imperians will out grow them. Realm is a long time nomads get better start imperians better finish. Also is beta so things will change as realm goe's on.

[Batista]

Let me see ... I had 250k population - after a pillage 72k people have gone. Do you know how much time do an imperian need to get to such an amount again? Imperians do not have such a population growth as nomads. Guess ... you will be shocked a little bit  Do you belive that someone will have 300.000 people in province (without capital - because it's easy)? Do you belive that when people see such an amount on your provinces they will show you mercy? 

[Sheremetev]

Yes, it is time this thing to undergo a serious discussion. However, for some things we need the late-game phase. It is hard to predict where will be the balance after half an year. And I am sure the devs have payed some careful consideration to the idea long ago. The fact that they haven't found a solution (yet) doesn't mean they don't have any idea (at all).

So, if you have any suggestions- don't be too shy to share them with us. I myself am looking for possible solutions of the problem (so that I can bug the devs too ).

[samyoboy]

How long has era got left? again nomads can't go over 200k population! Imperians ecconomy will out grow there's. Maybe in month or 2 will be nomads complaining most imperians have out grown them.   As I already said era has a long time left yet you are judging on now not the whole era. And again this is beta version not completed version. Some things will change others will stay the same.

[HerrSchultze]

i figured same thing that's why i'd choose nomads, abuse a couple of kids and quit after 3 months

[Batista]

I do not think you understand one thing - 1 war, 2 pillages per province and an imperian if he wants to have as much people as he had before pillage he needs 2,5 - 3 weeks ... a nomad - less then a week. This happens when you have 200.000 people per province ... by the way if you want to have 300.000 people in a province you need medicine lvl 20, 32 lvl's of houses and farms lvl 13 ... 9th lvl costs sth about 2mln of ressources, 10th - 4 mln, 11th - 8mln, 12 - 16 mln, 13 - 32 mln ... spedning 32mln of ress to gain 20k population more? If a nomad pillages such a province with 300.000 people he will kill 85.000 people (sanctuaries included) and your population growth will fall down to 350/h ... in such case you will need more than 10 days just to have 300.000 population again ... afrer war and 2 pillages - maybe 20 days ...

I assure you a player like Forest will pillage you to the the last man in province when he finds out that you are in x2 with 300.000 people ... and I suppose that he can do it with 1/3 or 1/4 of his army. You can do nothing against that. Even if you pillage him he will have 200.000 people two days later   This will happen later on ... what else? Pillaging is profitable for nomads  

An imperian therefore will never out grow a nomad.

Ironic ... if you have Fortress lvl 7 there is a cementary building even if you have not been pillaged  

1/3 - 1/4 of all imperians from TOP 120 are playing in one alliance, me too ... if nothing changes we will quit at the end of this year. Why? Because we have enough. It is too much for our nerves, costs too much time and money just to prove that we have right and something needs to be changed as quickly as possible. Imperians are too week: have worse economy, worse income, are worse in military. We checked it the hard way - won 3 wars and lost only once 

Next examples?

[Kopator]

 200.000 people, 15th lvl of medicine, farm lvl 9 !!!

i am sick and tired of building houses and farms      

[nekodrugi]

I do not think you understand one thing - 1 war, 2 pillages per province and an imperian if he wants to have as much people as he had before pillage he needs 2,5 - 3 weeks ... a nomad - less then a week. This happens when you have 200.000 people per province ... by the way if you want to have 300.000 people in a province you need medicine lvl 20, 32 lvl's of houses and farms lvl 13 ... 9th lvl costs sth about 2mln of ressources, 10th - 4 mln, 11th - 8mln, 12 - 16 mln, 13 - 32 mln ... spedning 32mln of ress to gain 20k population more? If a nomad pillages such a province with 300.000 people he will kill 85.000 people (sanctuaries included) and your population growth will fall down to 350/h ... in such case you will need more than 10 days just to have 300.000 population again ... afrer war and 2 pillages - maybe 20 days ...

I assure you a player like Forest will pillage you to the the last man in province when he finds out that you are in x2 with 300.000 people ... and I suppose that he can do it with 1/3 or 1/4 of his army. You can do nothing against that. Even if you pillage him he will have 200.000 people two days later   This will happen later on ... what else? Pillaging is profitable for nomads  

An imperian therefore will never out grow a nomad.

Ironic ... if you have Fortress lvl 7 there is a cementary building even if you have not been pillaged  

1/3 - 1/4 of all imperians from TOP 120 are playing in one alliance, me too ... if nothing changes we will quit at the end of this year. Why? Because we have enough. It is too much for our nerves, costs too much time and money just to prove that we have right and something needs to be changed as quickly as possible. Imperians are too week: have worse economy, worse income, are worse in military. We checked it the hard way - won 3 wars and lost only once 

Next examples?

I'm sorry but i think you are one sighted.

I must say that you are right (partly) in what you are saying but there is ALWAYS another side of coin.

As nomad IM SCARED imperials would very soon start blowing me away with no troubles. I did some calculations and i tried to predict what would happen so i can do good "strategic" decisions but I can't see bright future for nomads.

The moment you get elite units we are doomed. Your fort is MUCH stronger than our fort, your army is stronger than our army, your trebs are stronger than our trebs

So YES i have to compensate with larger number of units. Now think a second. DO YOU REALLY think we can pay army upkeep to match your army. For example, right now i'm walking on tin line. I can build army VERY FAST but in the same manner VERY FAST i would not be able to pay army upkeep. So we would start selling resources and prices would go even lower than now.

As it is now, i don't even try to attack Imperian with F7 unless he is ultimate noob and don't set his army properly.

As this game advance ALL I CAN SEE is imperian would start to dominate more and more. Why the hell you need 300k population? Isn't 250k in every province more than enough to have much better economy than nomads.

Why are you so afraid of pillage??? You have guardians, you have phalanx, you have MIGHTY archers and Trebs PLUS stronger paladins than our cavalry.

So add to that calculation province bonus you would have and nomad would have to send something like 2x stronger army to brake you and pillage.

I'm sure you are experienced player but i strongly believe you are making big mistake by thinking nomads are better and that nomads would rule the realm in few months.

I really do hope i'm wrong because i would hate to run from Imperians but as i can see it what almost all nomads would be able to do later in the game is pillage. In V4a i NEVER care if somebody pillage me. By the time big wars start i have damn strong army and i make my economy works in such a way that i DON'T feel pillage.

[samyoboy]

Let me see ... I had 250k population -

you said it yourself I have tried to talk with you but again although your points are listened to is case you don't listen. If player keeps pillaging they will get negative honour. This is not classic IO you can not use elite archer pillager strat. (I am guessing you know about pillager strategy in classic realms). In v5 you get to much neg honour your game is ruined. It seems to me you are upset cause you lost alot of population to pillage so are ranting. You give these examples of researches needed but what you are saying they are not possible in a long realm. Have you played v4a? researches that players have there in top net cost a fortune and they got them. IF you have suggestions then make them we are interested in suggestions ofc. And pls also take into account alliance researches. You have 2 race's both have advantage's and disadvantage. That is the whole point of having 2 race's. 

[Batista]

you said it yourself I have tried to talk with you but again although your points are listened to is case you don't listen. If player keeps pillaging they will get negative honour. This is not classic IO you can not use elite archer pillager strat. (I am guessing you know about pillager strategy in classic realms). In v5 you get to much neg honour your game is ruined. It seems to me you are upset cause you lost alot of population to pillage so are ranting. You give these examples of researches needed but what you are saying they are not possible in a long realm. Have you played v4a? researches that players have there in top net cost a fortune and they got them. IF you have suggestions then make them we are interested in suggestions ofc. And pls also take into account alliance researches. You have 2 race's both have advantage's and disadvantage. That is the whole point of having 2 race's. 

I won a realm in V4A ... most of my friends which play in my alliance too - because those are players who have won or have been in TOP 10 on inter or other servers.

What negative honor do we speak about when in war you do not loose honor for pillaging? Nomads actually having more army and pillage power can pillage your whole account twice in war without loosing one point of honor ...

Tell me one advantage of imperians (w/o +20% of stone production and stronger fortress) that they have over nomads. This bonus ... +20% to stone production is actually not much because it is better to produce wood and sell it on the market and to buy stone - it is a lot more profitable since a long time (too many people produce stone - I think imperians try to use one of their advantages). Stronger fortress ... it depends ... actually no because nomads have +10 morale bonus to attack on an imperian. Nomads can have twice as large garnison and the army unkeep for them is not twice as small and not all units are twice as weak. Ex.: If they keep cavalry (1.2 for imperians, 0.9 for nomads - the unkeep) in fortress - which is a good idea because if enemy archers are shooting you loose less archers per round as a defender ... they pay nothing for that. Nomad units are faster, stronger, cheaper, produce twice as fast ...

Fortress lvl 7, 10th lvl of forts ... you loose sth about 50 morale on it only (12 rounds) if you have 250 catapults and some heavy swordsman. 100 morale + 10 for being a general or 1st officer + 10 for lvl 10 training + 10 attack bonus on imperian ... you are starting with 130 - 50 = 80 morale left -20 for a province being rounded  ... 10 morale for a field battle but I have not seen a report in which anyone lost with more than 40 ... one group might escape but not whole army. Also when you have some knowlege you can do something like that:


BTW - it was nomads fortress lvl 5 ... with actually a very small army.

[tiger]

Honor is lost also for pillaging in war. Like in V4a. You dont lose honor in war for hitting weaker targets, outside of 2x. Pillaging always cost honor.
Beta realm is realm to test stuff. Some top nomads had advantage to be able to do stuff before we removed them, thats why they are so ahead. Era lasts 12 months or little less, so do you really think that nomads can pillage you all the time, having wars with you all the time... without ruining their accs. You dont think that faster researches from imperians will add something later, when researches will last very long. Nomads dont have guardians or phalanx. And every other military stuff mentioned in this topic allready.
Yes, starting as imperian is harder, because nomads have advantage on beggining, but later imperians will hve advantage. We cant give advantage to nomads first 15 days and then imperians should equalize and be stronger in 1 year era. You survive, then you rule. We cant predict everything, thats why we have beta. But future isnt so dark for imperians.

[Batista]

As this game advance ALL I CAN SEE is imperian would start to dominate more and more. Why the hell you need 300k population? Isn't 250k in every province more than enough to have much better economy than nomads.

Just to have 200.000 population I need lvl 9 farm and 28th lvl of houses. To gain 250.000 I need to spend 8mln of ressources more per province. For such an amount a nomad can build army and do reserches ... 8 mln is quie a lot don't you think?

Why are you so afraid of pillage??? You have guardians, you have phalanx, you have MIGHTY archers and Trebs PLUS stronger paladins than our cavalry.

Because after pillage of 250.000 people i loose sth about 72k and I need more than a week to gain such as much again. Mighty archers? I do not think so - nomads have also archers who are 2 as cheap and 2 as weak so we are equal ... Phalanx? I wouldn't be so sure that they are so strong. Guardians - yes ... it is only hope of imperians. Trebs? No ... why? Because they will give you nothing if you do not have stronger army.

So add to that calculation province bonus you would have and nomad would have to send something like 2x stronger army to brake you and pillage.

Thats not true ... a nomad needs only a little stronger army to pillage me - he can be 10% stronger only just to defeat my army and that's all.

I really do hope i'm wrong because i would hate to run from Imperians but as i can see it what almost all nomads would be able to do later in the game is pillage. In V4a i NEVER care if somebody pillage me. By the time big wars start i have damn strong army and i make my economy works in such a way that i DON'T feel pillage.

You do not care because you do not play imperians. Playing imperians is difficult - building houses all the time (some lvl's build more than 2 days so you have to check and think when to build one before the popultion growth stops because of no free space), you need to think a lot how to spend your ressources because you do not have such an income as nomads ... you produce less because you have less people in province in early stage. Houses - of course ... they are very important but they do not raise population growth so you need farms (or you might be happy with growth of  50/h per province but I do not think so). If a nomad annex a province with fortress lvl 7 he does/t need to build anything actually ... what he has there is enough to gain 200.000 people if he has medicine lvl 15 which is quite low.

[yovanna]

The topic is perfect for discussions and I applaud, but I will discuss balance with people with experience from realm 84. It is the less affected by all unbalances one, the realm where no player was able to get advantage, simply because the major changes (the resources in the independent provinces, the requirements for elite and heavy units etc) were made when top 84 accounts were far from this stage.   

I agree with Sheremetev that many stuff we could talk here will only have its objective result in a later stage of the realms, but we can still make our predictions and suggestions.