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Author Topic: Vassals  (Read 7404 times)
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tiger
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2010, 23:05:17 PM »

I understand your point. But the main problem here is that you made vassal reach 0 hapiness. *Smiley* If you kept him relativly happy, you wouldnt have such problem. I mean, taking tax lvl 1 gives you a lot more then taking 1 time lvl 5 tax and 1 time lvl 4 tax. And you dont go so low. Its question of strategy, and because this is beta, manny people didnt know that(that i admit). My guess is that next era or world, you wouldnt do that, but vassal them, take as much as you can from them with low tax, but to have maximum hapiness when you need to annex them.
We cant give more hapiness every day. A lot of game is based on this hapiness now and keep people happy as possible while squezing gold from them as much as possible. If we allow lvl 5 tax now, whats the point of game. Point of game is to develop fortress, town square, temple, colonies on special resources.... to allow getting highest tax and still have maximum hapiness. That will be ultimate empires. thats the goal. And that wont be so hard. If we give more hapiness, then achieving that will be job for small kid.
Some things needs to be polished, some things will be changed, adjusted, fixed... So i dont mind talking about new ideas, point of views, discuss... It can bring only good. Maybe there will be more hapiness, maybe vassals will produce more, somethings changed. For now they work as they work, and best profit is from small tax, on long terms, because first circle provinces are worst, better to wait for later provinces and get them.
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tiger
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numpty
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2010, 23:25:26 PM »

I understand your point. But the main problem here is that you made vassal reach 0 hapiness. *Smiley* If you kept him relativly happy, you wouldnt have such problem. I mean, taking tax lvl 1 gives you a lot more then taking 1 time lvl 5 tax and 1 time lvl 4 tax. And you dont go so low. Its question of strategy, and because this is beta, manny people didnt know that(that i admit). My guess is that next era or world, you wouldnt do that, but vassal them, take as much as you can from them with low tax, but to have maximum hapiness when you need to annex them.
We cant give more hapiness every day. A lot of game is based on this hapiness now and keep people happy as possible while squezing gold from them as much as possible. If we allow lvl 5 tax now, whats the point of game. Point of game is to develop fortress, town square, temple, colonies on special resources.... to allow getting highest tax and still have maximum hapiness. That will be ultimate empires. thats the goal. And that wont be so hard. If we give more hapiness, then achieving that will be job for small kid.
Some things needs to be polished, some things will be changed, adjusted, fixed... So i dont mind talking about new ideas, point of views, discuss... It can bring only good. Maybe there will be more hapiness, maybe vassals will produce more, somethings changed. For now they work as they work, and best profit is from small tax, on long terms, because first circle provinces are worst, better to wait for later provinces and get them.

i hear ya tiger, however, to vassal you must attack and lose gold equivalent.  with level 1 tax, how many days to recover lost resources if you take minimum swords?  10 swords cost an imperian 2180 wood and 650 iron, thats approximately 6k worth of gold at present prices, or 3 days of vassaling at 100 gold/hour.  dont forget according to your idea that´s 6 days in order to maintain your happiness rapidly manageable.
many players who started from day one at this point have centralization 3 or 4 built (as do i, i even found a dude with centralization 3 built, maybe 4, and 2400 points) but i have only 2 provs annexed cause 2-3 weeks ago, when we started, the first thing we did was increase tax to the max and now i must sit around for almost three weeks waiting for my recovery of happiness that even at 6k pop doesnt make any sense, reaping 76 gold or 96 gold per hour with level 1 tax every other day if i were to utilize your suggestion makes no logical sense.  wait 3-4 days and annex you start off with 10k pop and increases immediately resource collection, with current market prices, 0 sense vassaling.

i continue thinking that current vassaling in the early stages of the game is useless.  perhaps as centralization increases i may change opinions, but if you vassal in the beginning, there is no point in taxing beyond level 1 and even then i doubt it makes much sense at all to vassal cause the return is just too low with a 6k-8k population. 24 hours of level 1 tax vassaling is 2400 gold per day. after 10 days, if i had level 1 vassal, i would have reaped 24k gold (half the gold require for centralization 1), attacking my provs 10 times i would make more than that and make level 1, 2 and probably 3 from attacking the provs rather than vassaling them.

perhaps admins and programmers have thought ahead and I haven´t figured out the value of future vassals, but i am totally screwed as a result of it and i can´t understand what´s the point at this stage!  19 days and many diamonds to dig myself out of this hole seems too much punishment for such little gain in gold terms....

you´re better off attacking the provinces repeteadly 10 times, then annexing, than ever vassaling.  i´m gonna lose 75% of my game waiting for happiness increase in the vasseles province, make a north-star festival where i can spend 20 diamonds and immediately recover all happiness after 10-12 days cause under normal circumstances I don´t think i´d wait around like
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nekodrugi
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2010, 23:30:23 PM »

I understand your point. But the main problem here is that you made vassal reach 0 hapiness. *Smiley* If you kept him relativly happy, you wouldnt have such problem. I mean, taking tax lvl 1 gives you a lot more then taking 1 time lvl 5 tax and 1 time lvl 4 tax. And you dont go so low. Its question of strategy, and because this is beta, manny people didnt know that(that i admit). My guess is that next era or world, you wouldnt do that, but vassal them, take as much as you can from them with low tax, but to have maximum hapiness when you need to annex them.
We cant give more hapiness every day. A lot of game is based on this hapiness now and keep people happy as possible while squezing gold from them as much as possible. If we allow lvl 5 tax now, whats the point of game. Point of game is to develop fortress, town square, temple, colonies on special resources.... to allow getting highest tax and still have maximum hapiness. That will be ultimate empires. thats the goal. And that wont be so hard. If we give more hapiness, then achieving that will be job for small kid.
Some things needs to be polished, some things will be changed, adjusted, fixed... So i dont mind talking about new ideas, point of views, discuss... It can bring only good. Maybe there will be more hapiness, maybe vassals will produce more, somethings changed. For now they work as they work, and best profit is from small tax, on long terms, because first circle provinces are worst, better to wait for later provinces and get them.

You nail the point here.

It's beta and A LOT of people do stupid mistakes because they are testing. I'm one of those that did stupid mistake and i totally understand frustration numpty has.

I have SAME trouble. I was playing with tax and i didn't know once you vassal they stay forever.

So when i saw that 600 population in first vassal i did gives ridiculous donations even with max tax (i think 29 gold) i left it on max thinking they would rebel and leave me (my first mistake that lead to all other troubles).

How could i know you would add more people there?  How could i know that once you make vassals there is no way back? How could i know that i should wait for later stages to vassal so i have some profit???

Reason why we complain is because nobody explained that to us and we did stupid mistakes testing the game.

After all it's still beta.

And now we pay for it dearly. I have to wait 6 more day's till full happiness and my centralization would be over in 8 hours  *cry* *cry* *cry* *cry* *cry* *cry* *cry*

By the way. I still believe vassals are too spoiled.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 23:33:41 PM by nekodrugi » Logged
numpty
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2010, 23:47:32 PM »

in one of my vassals at the highest tax rate i lose 75 happiness per day and reap 484 gold/hour.  that´s 11616 in 24 hours.  to recover from 1 day of high tax i need 20 days.  thats 553 gold per day over a 21 day period (1 day making tax + 20 to return to annexable status).  at tax level 1 in the same province i produce 96 gold/hour or 2304 gold per day.  utilizing the one day tax, one day no tax method you suggested i would reap over 21 days 24192.  undoubtedly your suggestion is better than the high tax application, however, i produce currently in the 1st 3 weeks in main + 2 provs that i have annexed 4500 gold/hour.  when placed in this context i continue to believe that if i could make 55k gold maybe 21 days would be worth it, that would imply a gain over the 21 days of 2500 gold.

high tax is the worst possible scenario...

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vand00s
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« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2010, 01:19:44 AM »

you know what pisses me off Huh? is that nowhere in -how to play- it gives these information ...now im stuck with a research of centralization and i cant annex none of the other provinces cause i made the stupidity to vassals 2 provinces and other province that i could annex are already level 6 fort filled up with heavy troops..... in order to make heavy troops i need to have centralization 4 but now it is impossible,,then im reading that i have to wait for 20 days before being able to annex these province( time for happiness to be at max) ..come ooonnnn !!!other option is to train 100 000 light soldiers to take down the level 6 of independent provinces wich is gonna take me 30 days ...can you just reset my account plllzzzz or give better info in your- how to play-
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vand00s
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« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2010, 01:33:39 AM »

ok i found it in how to play everything is there ...
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yovanna
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« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2010, 10:46:19 AM »

in one of my vassals at the highest tax rate i lose 75 happiness per day and reap 484 gold/hour.  that´s 11616 in 24 hours.  to recover from 1 day of high tax i need 20 days.  thats 553 gold per day over a 21 day period (1 day making tax + 20 to return to annexable status).  at tax level 1 in the same province i produce 96 gold/hour or 2304 gold per day.  utilizing the one day tax, one day no tax method you suggested i would reap over 21 days 24192.  undoubtedly your suggestion is better than the high tax application, however, i produce currently in the 1st 3 weeks in main + 2 provs that i have annexed 4500 gold/hour.  when placed in this context i continue to believe that if i could make 55k gold maybe 21 days would be worth it, that would imply a gain over the 21 days of 2500 gold.

high tax is the worst possible scenario...




Numpty, I understand why is that you're kinda pissed off, but let's focus on something - vassals are not annexed province, nothing like them, far away from this concept. Annexed provinces' existence is crucial for Empire's economy progress, we all know that and aim for them. Vassal's existence is optional. You can have them to increase your global gold income by couple of hundreds per hour or you can easily choose not to make a vassal. Vassals give you extra income for nothing in return, I mean - annexed provinces are spoiled, they need daily investments to continue to give you profit (houses, mines etc etc etc). Vassals don't need anything. Their existence is optional. Do you get my point?

PS: Now... your case - high tax in a vassal? really?
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numpty
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2010, 14:43:42 PM »

i understand all the points presented here, however, it does not negate the fact that a vassal in the 1st circle is not worth it ever!  in 21 days with low tax you make peanuts.  without changes in either population or in happiness in the vassal, there is no point at all in vassaling in the 1st circle. 

i still have 3 days to go to be able to annex the province, just silly.  and no i am not pissed off cause this is beta and i am not playing to win anything.  i feel that vassaling as is, is silly, and needs to be addressed in the 1st circle of provinces.  I would venture to say remove the possibility of vassaling in the 1st circle cause it´s a bad move and just makes you wait eternities and gives you so little in return.

IF YOU VASSAL DO NOT EVER HIGH TAX THE VASSAL OR YOUR SCREWED!!!!!  if you vassal with a low tax it does you no good cause you can never attack that province again.  at the very least you must attack 10 times, then vassal, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

perhaps later in the era it will make sense but right now vassaling is useless....to give you an idea i will have centralization 4, all heavy troop techs made and likely 1 or 2 forts 5 before i can do anything useful with my 2 vassaled provinces!!!
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yovanna
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« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2010, 15:22:42 PM »

I didn't say vassals are a bargain *wink*
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maeof
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« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2010, 16:16:55 PM »

So much theories, what to choose - don't know  *xxx*
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by Koramae.
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2010, 16:32:03 PM »

So much theories, what to choose - don't know  *xxx*

you dont ever play full era anyway..  *Tongue* *Tongue* *Tongue*
 *freak*
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numpty
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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2010, 18:12:23 PM »

I didn't say vassals are a bargain *wink*

bargain?  that would be cheap, in my case vassals are a friggin ripoff, i was cheated, i want my money back or krum to implore me to forgive him, for well, being him!!!!!

vassals suck!!!
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To whom is may concern, to all unhappy, disappointed, permanently complaining people:
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nekodrugi
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2010, 19:13:20 PM »

bargain?  that would be cheap, in my case vassals are a friggin ripoff, i was cheated, i want my money back or krum to implore me to forgive him, for well, being him!!!!!

vassals suck!!!

I'm totally supporting you  hooray
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maeof
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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2010, 19:39:32 PM »

you dont ever play full era anyway..  *Tongue* *Tongue* *Tongue*
 *freak*


Heheh, we will see *Smiley*
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