Imperians vs Nomads ...

[Batista]

I got only one question which is quite important I think. When you gonna balance Imperians and Nomads? I know this is only beta version of the game and will be restarted soon I think but how you are going to do that and check if things are all right when there are only maybe 10 Imperians in TOP 70? Now I play Imperians and it is very difficult to play against stronger Nomads - they have stronger units and are stronger economicaly.

Stronger units why?

1 Imperian archer = 2 Nomad archers
100 life = 100 life
15 in attack < 16 in attack
490 wood 11 iron < 490 wood 10 iron
... but there is only one problem when I have "archery" higher than level 0 ... at level 7:
22 in attack <30 in attack

I checked it in calc few times ... 100 imperian archers = sth. about 180 nomad archers ... 10% advantage? why?

Next thing ... nomads have their supply wagons. Interesting ... 1800 wood and 40 iron. If I were a nomad I wouldn't use them at all. Why?
1 supply wagon = 14 javelin man
1800 wood, 40 iron / 1708 wood, 42 iron
500 cargo > 14 x 30 = 420 cargo
2 gold per hour / 1,4 gold per hour

80 cargo less but at least I have unit that can fight, uses less gold ...

Another thing is that if you compare imperian units to nomad units in cargo you will see that nomad units can carry twice as much for the same price (without cavalry, supply wagons).

In economy things are worse then in military. Imperians have their 20% stone bonus ... woow but why my fortress is 30% more expensive? Level 1 of fortress for example: 1000 stone for nomads, 1300 stone for imperians. Imperian fortress is stronger but nomads have their 10% population bonus which has influence in all resources not only stone ...

10% population bonus = 10% more gold, 10% more stone, 10% more wood, 10% more iron = 40% overall
20% stone bonus = 20% stone bonus = 20% overall

I do not think things are here all right. Do not tell me that "nomads have to build farms more often then imperians and therefore they need such a bonus" because an imperian has to build houses all the time - sometimes every day one level per province.

Some say: "The imperians will be stronger later on ..." - yeah, sure, dream on ... they will be crushed all the time because of worse and more expensive military units and worse economy. The higher max population is not such a huge bonus ... wake up 

10 imperians vs 60 nomads ... how do you want to check if everything is balanced as it should be ... I do not know. I think after beta we will have even beta2 tests 

Thank you for your attention.

[steveempire]

alot of good points there, very well thought out 

unit speed has been the 1 disappointment I have had looking at my Empirians...My fastest goldminer goes .5 slower than the Nomads.  That means more trips per day for nomads...and pillaging, basic nomad units run like horses! 

wood 122 iron 3 attack 5 hps 50 speed 1.5 upkeep 0.1 30  vs
wood 245 iron 5 attack 10 hps 100 speed 1 upkeep 0.2 carry 30 

So, running the double army for same price.  A nomad attacks with 200 basics vs 100 imperian basics and 200 nomads win.  The 2 nomads have same strength of 1 imperian but 1/2 HP...This is not a big deal as damage is spread across cohorts, so 2:1 greater mass of nomads spreads the imperian cohort, so 2 nomads face only 1 imperian.  The battle ends with 146 living nomads and 52 imperians...

[redborg]

nomads will rule start of realm but imperians will rule the end.

if nomads have any sense they will crush imperians in the begining.

[wazery]

And there won't be strong imperians at the end of game

[yovanna]

You're all right and made some good points. I play Imperian too and as a player I'm facing real difficulties getting in top 50 - I have 3 provinces and a nice economy, but still.... I'm not able to top nomads' higher population growth. But let's not forget that this growth will go up to 200k and will permanently stop... for good, while Imperians will have the chance to continue growing, at that point I expect Imperians in top 50. But this all can be seen and proved in a couple of months.

[fragmaster]

my opinion : thats not balance. If  u play some other strategies with races ,like starcraft ,ull see that in all phases ,early,mid,late,there is no "race" advantage ,just skill advantage .I would ask u to revise my suggestion from beta forum about balancing races..Because ,nomads will ride their horse until they become weaker and then just quit ! brilliant.And start new realm,and kill everything they want to again.So they wont be like "allright ,come imperian ,retaliate ,i will be dummy target and let u revenge".Thats not happening,ppl quit when things turn around..

[sheridon]

i agree totally with fragmaster, who is stupid enough to watch a guy get stronger than you and just let him come back and abuse you after you did it to him? besides 70% of players quit in late game stage so obviously imperians will dominate, but of course, only among themselves..................... its better to play nomad and kick *** until you cant anymore and then start a new era and do the same, keep your old account in the old era just to pillage the imperian you hate and thats it.

[fragmaster]

i know players mentality i play this game too much 

[Batista]

Imperians will rule at the end? Do not be funny ... at start you do not have so many provices because you are an easy target for nomads. In later stage when you will try to collect resources you will be attacked all the time and when you get more than 200k population you will be pillaged. The pillage is a disaster for imperians - they do not have +10% to growth like nomads do. If you rule early stage of the game and the mid stage there is a huge probability that you will rule till the end. In a month time or maybe earlier there will be no imperian player in TOP 100 - there is a chance but many nomad players have to quit playing - and thats not what it should look like.

The end of game ... it will look like this if even you get to TOP 5. You will have many provinces, many people - even you can have 300.000 in one province but if you try to make an army or collect resources for something expensive you will be crushed. Thats not strategy - thats massacre 

The races should be balanced 50/50 from the start on till the end of the game. If nothing changes I doubt that anyone will choose imperians in future.

Next problem is that it should be done before the start of beta because now noone can compare a nomad accout to an imperial one. Nomads have too much population, too much army, more provinces and they almost rule TOP 50. Programists fix calc, add population (which was a mistake too because as i wrote - nomads have more provinces and they gained more population for free) and so on. They should balance the races first and then fix the calc (after balancing races I think they will do it again - twice as much work). Now I do not know how do they balance the races ... the best way is to restart the server again and hope that things work fine - if not ... sorry - restart again.

I do not know who counted and tried to balance the races but he messed up. Lack of logic ... if you give one race a 10% population bonus you should give the second one 10% productivity bonus - that is what I think. Someone gave us 20% stone bonus and 30% more expensive fortress. One thing more ... if you do not mind ... do not tell me that an imperian fortress is 40% stronger than a nomad one - this is not true. If you think a little bit and make some calculations you will find out that by adding techs and archers, balistas it is almost as strong as an imperian one.

Reserch bonus? I would call it a joke ... I have a problem to collect resuorces for one reserch - why do I need the speed in reserching?

[fragmaster]

i would disagree about research bonus.Thing is that economy produces more than u can ever plunder with army+ after few months research time is bottleneck ,not resources.

[fragmaster]

and i can bet my life i can beat in nw any nomad ,after full era,with being imperian

[Batista]

Full era? First you have to survive few months being pillaged, crushed and so on ... and I do not belive that you would be in range x2 at the end. Every time you wold be close to x2 in range you would loose your army on 6h off. If you had 200.000 people in any province you wold be pillaged. Sorry - life is brutal 

[fragmaster]

lol 

[tiger]

First, there is army save, which keeps your army safe. Second, yes with 20 nomads on 1 imperian and everybody just attack him, he wont stand a chance. But why would everybody hit him. Maybe he would be in alliance which will have benefits if he gets strong, so they will protect him, to make thing equal. Why only 1 side would terrorize other. In 6 h off of other player, you can do damage to him. There is always risk if you bully someone, that he wont care for his acc and just play to ruin your gameplay, so i doubt there will be constant army killing for no reason. Other side must have some benefits from that. It isnt so easy to kill army to expirienced player. In V5 that should be easier if you clean capitol of gold, so army will be trapped, but that will take time and organization. Later, there will certanly be more resources then you will able to research, so 15% faster research will come in handy. Also more population will come in handy. Pillaged isnt so popular at most people, because they know they can get pillaged back.
We will see what will hapend.

[fragmaster]

  shh tiger  , im alone ,i wont bring (m)any friends