Why to NOT be a farmer ?

[yakyak]

Hello all,
i am kind a newbie in this game with about 16000 point for now. i get the first province and a moutain with forest boxed. for now 99% of my attack are gold mines. I am making a lot of siege weapon for the last week to begin attacking some non goldmine guys. But i really don't get what is the beneficts to attack others. Let me explain : i like to play with the simulator. So here is a simple simulation.

Let's take an army of 20000 heavy swordman and 50 catapult. Let s fight against a single fort 5, fortification 7 full of heavy archer (2800) in a plain NOT boxed (well boxed or not this army will win 100% of the time).
I can make any simulation i want. For this kind of configuration, entering my military medecine, attack and wondering average number for my 8000 point opponents, he kills me 700 heavy each tieme (as i putted only one group of attack no random here, just plain numbers). 700 heavy in my realm = 52.500 wood + 21000 iron. In gold at the exchange rate = 52.500 * 1.7 + 21000 *8 = 89250+168000=257250 gold.. + the upkeep of the army while traveling. 0.5 more then in my province : for a 4 hour trip (2 to go,2 to come) : 0.5*(20.000 heavy at 0.3)+0.5*(50*catapult at 15)=0.5*(6000)+0.5*(750)=3375 per hour so multiply by 4=13.500 . Total for this attack : 257250+13500=270.050 gold ! So it means that against a very low leve target with NOTHING in the field, with a nice army, i must take MINIMUM 270.050 gold before i win a penny. At 8000 point, people get between 300.000 and 400.000 MAX in their province with no army in the field. So i sually can make at MAX like 100.000 per attack.. Compared to 300.000 - 400.000 against gold mines but with no cost at all....

Off course, don't fire me here. i will never send such army (i mean no cavalery to get god back etc), my only goal is what to try to get why it will be interesting in the lower point to attack anyone. I hope later on this is much much more beter to attack a "real"player then a gold mine.

Can experienced player tell me if later on, this is much more better to attack "real" guy (i mean more gold) then gold mines ? Cause when i see the top 50, and i see some killed less soldier at 100.000 point then me at 16.000 (and attacking 99% of the time only gold mine!) i wonder where the challenge is for now

thanks to all

[fragmaster]

profit of attacks in v4a outside of war is almost impossible.Goal for attacker is to damage u ,and if he is close ,to make u quit game (so they have nearby goldmines for themselves).U need pure cavalry against fort archers to maintain profit.So its hell-hard play to be military player.In war u get 50% of resources of killed army(avoiding market) ,and this can be profitable.But winning all wars ,killing all oponents with very good and profitable battles is not enaugh to have more networth then farmers that only goldmine and make medicines (i'ts very hard ,i dont know how to play without economy and be top nw that way,im trying ,but i cannot be no1 networth pure military way,i will salute anyone who can ).

[yakyak]

So during war you take 50% of all the ressource he get when you siege it ? How war works please ? When you are in war you see it somehwere ?

thanks !

[samyoboy]

profit of attacks in v4a outside of war is almost impossible.Goal for attacker is to damage u ,and if he is close ,to make u quit game (so they have nearby goldmines for themselves).U need pure cavalry against fort archers to maintain profit.So its hell-hard play to be military player.In war u get 50% of resources of killed army(avoiding market) ,and this can be profitable.But winning all wars ,killing all oponents with very good and profitable battles is not enaugh to have more networth then farmers that only goldmine and make medicines (i'ts very hard ,i dont know how to play without economy and be top nw that way,im trying ,but i cannot be no1 networth pure military way,i will salute anyone who can ).

I don't think you can be pure military and top networth in even v1 or v2. Playing pure military in v1 or v2 the ojective is to keep points low that way you can get to coins that pay army upkeep. In v4a though you can attack any coin from 50 points upwards so don't matter if you got over 1 million networth you can still hit a coin of 50 net. Plus alliance ranking is scored on mp so that takes out the point in playing low points to win AR aswell. The way v4a works i'd say ecco is best way to play! Although I am a v1 or2 man myself I only thing I really like about v4a is trying to catch army's 10k+ distance away from me

[samyoboy]

So during war you take 50% of all the ressource he get when you siege it ? How war works please ? When you are in war you see it somehwere ?

thanks !

war lasts a week the winning alliance is the 1 that has scored most mp. players from winning alliance recieve war income of wood and iron for army's killed if this is 50% of resource value of army I am not sure. All I know is if your alliance win's war the more army's you have personally killed in that war the more income you get

[fragmaster]

50% resource gain:
For example u kill enemy in battle (in war)that have 1000 swordsman .Lets say he have military medicine 0 ,and recovers 17% of troops.This mean u killed 830 swordsman.If u win war ,u will get resources enaugh to build 415 swordsman(or anything equivalent,that costs same amount of wood/iron) . 18675 wood and 7470 iron.On end of war winner get option to receive all resouces, combined from all battles (even lost ones ),in war income section.U dont need to go and count every soldier u killed ,it is enaugh to look at "lost nw points" of report ,and u will resources to build half of that amount.Ull just need some practice to learn how much each soldier brings nw .
For example:
1000 spearman = 67.5 networth points
1000 swordsman = 135 networth points

in our case guy that lost 830 swordsman lost 112 points ,so u will get points to build 56 points of army (830 spearman,or 208 light cavalry etc...)

i hope i was clear

[fragmaster]

I don't think you can be pure military and top networth in even v1 or v2.

i'll do it or die trying .At least killing top players will satisfy me too

[samyoboy]

i'll do it or die trying .At least killing top players will satisfy me too

I like the attitude good luck I'll just stick to killing as many players in 2x as I can

[k_mihai]

farming is more profitable than military in IO, any version but is also boring. in v4, you can try to use in the beginning (like up to the 4-5th province) a small army to gather resources faster from not well defended players and cover the costs of centralization.

in v1, you can`t be top mil with pure mil way cause farmers crush their armies between them (especially in realms like r1) at the end of the era

[D00M]

farming is more profitable than military in IO, any version but is also boring. in v4, you can try to use in the beginning (like up to the 4-5th province) a small army to gather resources faster from not well defended players and cover the costs of centralization.

in v1, you can`t be top mil with pure mil way cause farmers crush their armies between them (especially in realms like r1) at the end of the era

The best in my opinion is to find balance. You have to take in consideration the other good players in realm and the actions taken by them!
In v4 (12months), all depends from good diplomacy on beggining, killing easy targets for military points (with high carto, max18-19), avoiding tough wars (but never run away) and rising your points just to be at top in net worth (not more than 50k-100k from the second, so you dont lose easy targets).
After you killed all the easy targets (around 6 months) you go higher in points, concentrate more in economy and be bigger from any "farmer", control there armies by killing them with high milit medicine, colonize as many provinces as they does. You always try to have better Spying from anyones border, very high milit medic, high border so you can get alarmed in time if someone thinking attacking you.
When you clear your side of map, its not the end! The time of kamikaze and multis begin. Distance doesnt matter and you can expect attacks from in most cases multis that trained quietly huge armies only for you. At that point, a good team comes in 1st place. It will be much easier if your team keep them busy!
One very important thing is to never stop researh! At the end you will have to compete against players specialized to Spy for example, so your border should be at least 25 (+6 from the alliance research). You cant expect more than +7 from the alliance research and if you have to choose between Spying and Border, ALWAYS choose Spying. Also, you should have one of the biggest armies from the start and maintain the upkeep by using the bank interest till you start expecting the kamikaze (after 7-8 months in my experience). If at that moment you have "friends" out of your alliance with 100 milion gold at capital, then you have to sent them msg to spent that gold cause the multis will attack them sooner or later to maintain there armies (their bad economy requires that). If they dont spent it, you go for it (i didnt do it...) before some of your enemies take it and use it against you! If you do all that well, then you can call yourself a Warmer and you have many chances to win the networth also. Of course, if you have in your team an excellent "farmer", then you should be glad with the 2nd place at net worth And dont believe if some polite guy without army, tell you that his only goal is to colonize all his provinces. Pillage and siege the storyteller with all your team!!! 

[k_mihai]

yeah, knew all that, but 12 months is boring

[what]

profit of attacks in v4a outside of war is almost impossible.Goal for attacker is to damage u ,and if he is close ,to make u quit game (so they have nearby goldmines for themselves).U need pure cavalry against fort archers to maintain profit.So its hell-hard play to be military player.In war u get 50% of resources of killed army(avoiding market) ,and this can be profitable.But winning all wars ,killing all oponents with very good and profitable battles is not enaugh to have more networth then farmers that only goldmine and make medicines (i'ts very hard ,i dont know how to play without economy and be top nw that way,im trying ,but i cannot be no1 networth pure military way,i will salute anyone who can ).

that doesn't always work, i have defeated lots of players near me on my realm, some have managed to get back on the game, others i attacked more and more, and 3 of these have capitulated from me, others have started playing less and are far too low in points to be worthwhile anymore. some did become gold mines, but there are so few goldmines in our area that people attack goldmines with 10k gold in them so they never really add up to anything. the only profit i make is by attacking people with my whole army, get 300-500k, use it to make 1 technology, and use the rest to regain the army i lost, and so i grow a lot slower than anyone else. i'm not saying my tactic is good but it's much more fun, bad thing is you get lots of enemies.

i really think gold mines should be removed from the game, would make the game much more fun. it wouldn't change much, because no one would have gold mines so it would be equal and maybe make fortress sieging more profitable so people prefer to attack people then to leave their army at home all the time.

[D00M]

but there are so few goldmines in our area that people attack goldmines with 10k gold in them so they never really add up to anything. the only profit i make is by attacking people with my whole army, get 300-500k, use it to make 1 technology, and use the rest to regain the army i lost, and so i grow a lot slower than anyone else. i'm not saying my tactic is good but it's much more fun, bad thing is you get lots of enemies.

i really think gold mines should be removed from the game, would make the game much more fun. it wouldn't change much, because no one would have gold mines so it would be equal and maybe make fortress sieging more profitable so people prefer to attack people then to leave their army at home all the time.

I talked earlier about finding balance, but I totally agree with you. One parameter of the game that depends only on luck is the location of goldmines. Some players have 10 goldmines at 100-300 distance, some others only 2 goldmines below 1000 distance...  So, you cant be a farmer if you dont have what to farm... But the goldmines are also very important for big networth warriors, so you cant be one of them also 
Often many players with 0 net points, populate almost everything around and below 500 distance... something that IO could resolve by relocations the first 20-30 days! If we all agree that our success is also a matter of luck, then maybe we should have an option to emigrate the first 20 days... or at least 3 random chances (10 credits for each)  ... Emigration should be possible for players with a minimum-maximum of net points and with limitations as no attacking the first 2 days at the new position
Or no goldmines and after 7 days of inactivity, just stop all their production...
Or just slow down the other players by pillaging their goldmines in v4a  ... they will stop producing even gold...
All in all, something should be done to make the game more balanced...

[KoSaC]

oh and 1 very important thing that always prevents me of finishing an era -.- dont piss off whole realm...somehow i always do that...i croatian realm i tried to be nice..next thing i know 2-3 strongest alliances onto me  worst thing is those guys never slept..i had like 20 attacks a day xD

[victorklr]

listen to doom .... he knows what he's saying