heavy spearmen

[jams]

Why do i think that h. units are better than light? Because they have more HP. 200HP is better than 2x100 because it's easier to kill 100hp unit than 200hp unit. DO battles in the way i write above.

1) Spearmen has 100HP; Heavy Spearmen has 150 (THERE IS NO 100 VS 200 COMPARISON)
2) For the cost of getting 100HP in light spearmen you can only get 90HP in Heavy Spearmen.
3) 2 x 100 being easier to kill than 1 x 200 hp would hold true if units were fighting 1v1.  But as soon as you have more than 1.000 units they fight in groups of more than 100 and deliver all their damage in VERY FEW DISCREET ROUNDS.  So TBH, more individual HP actually means shit in MOST cases.
4) The real comparison would be 1.000 x 100 HP (=100.000 HP) IS MUCH HARDER to kill than 600 x 150 HP (=90.000 HP).  This is because all the damage would be delivered in a maximum of 10-15 rounds (usually much less) SO THE CHANCE OF A UNIT SURVIVING DUE TO MORE INDIVIDUAL HP WILL BE BY FAR OVERSHADOWED BY THE 10.000 MORE HP THE LIGHT UNITS HAVE.

I already did the battles... How about you try it and report back.

[Radooo]

3) 2 x 100 being easier to kill than 1 x 200 hp would hold true if units were fighting 1v1.  But as soon as you have more than 1.000 units they fight in groups of more than 100 and deliver all their damage in VERY FEW DISCREET ROUNDS. 

Here you are very wrong

[jams]

I might be and I'm willing to learn, so care to explain how?

Oh and btw I mean discrete...bah

[isolde]

I might be and I'm willing to learn, so care to explain how?

Oh and btw I mean discrete...bah

read this: http://www4.imperiaonline.org/forums/int/index.php?topic=13622.0

[jams]

Yeah I noticed the mistake (and have already seen that post)...it's groups of 10 and not 100 - shouldn't post at 2am .  Sorry, I stand corrected.

But it doesn't change the fact that as number of units grow, the number of soldiers in a group grow too as you will never have more than 100 (and some) groups.  And as the number of soldiers grows, the individual hp becomes less and less pertinent (it becomes too small compared to the damage done per round and the total number of hp in the group).  Regardless of the mistake, the point still stands!

[Vanc]

This has been an interesting read and was exactly the kind of discussion I was searching for. It's a pity the original posters have probably moved on.

It seems to me that on simple inspection, the different levels of units are pretty much the same regarding the cost vs. strength, so that purchasing 600 heavy spears is pretty much the same as having 1000 light spears. The main advantage, as has already been stated earlier in this thread, is that heavies use up less population. However, for people with high pop. growth this may not be a big issue.

The calculations made by jams are very informative, and show that in most cases light units may indeed be better compared with their cost. Once armour and melee attack bonuses are factored in, they would seem to favour light units even further. The most significant situation where higher level units are better is in the fort garrison, where space is limited. Here having elite archers is undeniably superior. And the swordsmen attacking the fort example that was given earlier is also worth noting. In other situations, are heavy spears really better than light? They should be, but it seems they aren't.

I wonder if it might be possible to make a rule change, if the previous info is true, to give heavy units an extra bonus over light units. Surely people should be motivated to put every effort into upgrading their units so as to improve their army. Perhaps making them just 10% more cost effective than light units would be enough. And making sure that armour/melee bonuses are adjusted according to their level.

[PsYchOtiChiKen]

It seems to me that on simple inspection, the different levels of units are pretty much the same regarding the cost vs. strength, so that purchasing 600 heavy spears is pretty much the same as having 1000 light spears. The main advantage, as has already been stated earlier in this thread, is that heavies use up less population. However, for people with high pop. growth this may not be a big issue.

No.  Moral is much more serious than population loss.

There are several reasons for light troops.  One is that light troops carry more resources.  Several posts already mentioned that. Faster movement can also be useful for taking resources, especially from gold mines.

More relevant is the cost of research.  Setting up a battle between 1200 heavy cavalry and 2000 light cavalry does not reflect the cost of research.  I have not calculated how many light cavalry you can deploy for the same networth as heavy cavalry.  For paladins it is about 20,000 paladins.  What I mean is that a player can have 40,000 heavy cavalry with mellee 7, armor 8 and have equal networth with a player that has mellee 14 and armor 14. (version 4a).  So the battle comparison is 80,000 heavy cavalry against 20,000 paladins. 

A third factor is flank cavalry.  Compare in the plains with melee 14 armor 15:
10,000 paladins with 40,000 lite spears vs 12,500 paladins.
loses 1450 vs 9350 moral 68
10,000 paladins with 12,500 phalanx vs 12,500 paladins.
loses 1650 vs 9350 moral 84

I have also noticed that lite spears tend to inspire people to pull elite archers out of the fort and send them along with attacks.  In combat rounds 5,6 and sometimes 7 the attacker still has guardians and a few elite archers.  Many of the light spears disappear in rounds 1 and 2.  In round 5 the attacker loses moral because (s)he is fighting pure flank cavalry.  This most effective in the forested mountains with high fortification research. 

20,000 paladins, 30,000 guardians, 10,000 elite archers vs 10,000 paladins, 40,000 lite spears in forested mountains.

Calc says a moral loss of 36 before the fortress battle begins.  Against a boxed fortress with archers in the fort the attack is likely to fail.  Of course you still lose your army but I think it is great fun anyway.   

Honor is a fourth reason I feed light troops into an elite army.  If you are send 20,000 paladins with 400 catapults and lose 800 paladins you get 0 points of honor.  Add 1000 light spears your losses increase to 1200 or 1300 troops.  That brings you 3 points of honor.  A lot of players do not care about honor.  The moral bonuses are nice and there is a honor chart.  You should try to be on at least one of the charts. 

[Vanc]

I'd forgotten about morale which is of course an issue, but even with morale it's not absolutely clear. I tried a number of scenarios in the battle calculator such as the following:

2000 light spears versus 300 light archers: spears win with 73 morale
1200 heavy spears versus 300 light archers: spears win with 69 morale
2000 light spears versus 1500 light cav: spears win in round 9 with 79 morale, 808 spears remain in round 10 (40% of original)
1200 heavy spears versus 1500 light cav: spears win in round 11 with 78 morale, 280 spears remain in round 12 (23.3% of original)

I'll have to run a lot more scenarios in the calculator to see, but my personal view is that the advantages of upgrading troops should be very clear. One way to do this would be to reduce the upkeep costs of higher level troops. Perhaps if lights, heavies and elites all had the same upkeep it would persuade people to put every effort into upgrading as soon as they can.

[Moonshadow]

I ran many test on light and heavy units and i concluded that:
1. With advancing attack and defense heavy units become better.(Try 300K light spearmen against 20 000 heavy cavalry at 5attack/defense amd 900K versus 20K at 17)
2. For the same cost they are not as effective as heavy and elites.(i took two equal armies and substitutes some of the elites by light soldiers of equal cost and lost repeatedly)

The reasons in favor of light units seem to be:
1. If you do win you get a lot of honor.
2. They have more carry capacity.

Otherwise in standard battles i see no reason why lights are more effective.

P.S: i am a total newbie this is my first era so please help me in this matter.

[Moonshadow]

I ran some more tests and realise that If the army size is great especially cavalry then light l.spearmen are good
Sorry I didnt read all the post before replying now its all very clear to me. Thanks!!

[Vanc]

Well, even if heavy spears are better than light, the fact that there isn't a clear advantage is a problem. We shouldn't even be having this kind of discussion because heavy units should be significantly better than light units, and elites should be better than heavies. Higher level archers are definitely worth having, catapults have a slight advantage over rams because they fire earlier, heavy swords get a slight advantage because of the limited number that can attack the walls at the same time and heavy/elite cav get a slight attack bonus in the first round. Even these advantages are not as good as they should be, but spears seem to be the worst in terms of gains from levelling up.

What about having a change of system? In most strategy games, the cost of units remains the same after they level up, but all units, including those already produced, get a bonus. For example, you could have L1 spearmen with attack 10 & hitpoints 100, L2 spears with attack 12 & hp 120, L3 with 15 & 150, and you could even add L4 & L5, which would give people more research to do at later stages of the game. It would also simplify things - you wouldn't need to have lights, heavies & elites all in the same army and you wouldn't need separate tabs for lights, heavies and elites in the recruit soldiers page - there'd only be one type of spearmen, one type of archer etc. that could be produced and that unit would automatically be produced at your current research level.

Just a thought. Might make the strategy more interesting. I'm not trying to be overly critical. I do enjoy playing this game, but every game needs to be improved on constantly. What will Imperia Online be like 10 years from now? It could have a completely different look and feel, yet keep the same basic gameplay and philosophy.

[Moonshadow]

Just a thought. Might make the strategy more interesting.

I think having light, heavy and elite units gives more scope for strategy. elites will be favored by warriors and lights by pillagers so different style players can accomofate better.
There is no place for heavy units they appear for a small transitional period and then dissappear forever 

[PsYchOtiChiKen]

Well, even if heavy spears are better than light, the fact that there isn't a clear advantage is a problem.

No it is not a problem. 

Real world history suggests that light troops should be useful.  Most armies in the middle ages and ancient world had some light troops.

A competitive war game is better if there is something to think about and some sort of balance.  It is nice to have several army set ups to choose from.  Vanc suggests modifying the game so that we have exactly one choice and that one choice is obvious to anyone playing the game.  I think that would ruin the game.

[redborg]

light spears produce the cheapest honour in the game.

[fragmaster]

canceling +3 honor per day would help balance greatly imo.that way u cant just farm and then use spearman in big battles coz of moral drop problem