heavy spearmen

[brianyoo89]

is there any use of having heavy spearmen against light units?
i know it's better than light spearmen, but i'm asking
are they useful in fighting against light archers, swords ?

[brianyoo89]

which means heavy spearmen is useless against light units...  i got the point. heavy cavalry seems to be very effective against light units then.. lol

[jams]

Actually no, light cavalry is more effective against light units than heavy cavalry 

And heavy spearmen are easier to kill than light spearmen.  Don't listen to the mods, they just want to delude you 

[Starbuck]

But they are still the most effective anti-cavalry units you'll have at this stage of your military development (while waiting for phalanxes )

[jams]

Well actually no again - it seems that the penalty Spearmen are supposed to have against Heavy and Elite Cavalry is not working.  So again, light Spearmen are more effective against H. Cavalry than H. Spearmen.

shhhh...don't tell anyone

[jams]

Well you don't have to believe me, but I hope you believe the battle calculator.

Please indulge me and do a simulation of equal value (and net worth) of light spears/heavy spears against heavy cavalry in any numbers.  Use 60 heavy spears for every 100 light (that's the correct cost/networth).  Please tell me a combination in which light spears are not better than heavy spears against heavy cavalry.

Admittedly, there are some borderline battles with morale involved were light units are worse than heavy, but I would dare say in the majority of real game situations light units trump heavy!

Heavy units are better
1) in certain situations where morale is involved
2) in situations where number of soldiers is what counts and not army cost/networth.  So swords against castles and garrisons.
3) catapults are much better than rams (but only because they get to fight 2 rounds earlier).

Everything else...light wins!

[jams]

Compensated by the much smaller loses long term by using those same light units...

Or by the less resources you need to invest to get the same quality army...

Or by the much higher carry capacity which may bring you more income which may bring you higher levels of medicine/centralization/granaries/farms...

Do you want me to talk the other benefits of the light units - like the much better improvement they receive from upgrades?  Or the permanent point reduction you get when losing them?

Cmmon...Do I look stupid?

Can we please stick to discussing the quality of those units in battles?

[Starbuck]

you are talking about v4a Realms, right ?
coz that kind of strategy in Classic Realms won't get you very far  ....

like Makatas said, the major drawback of light units is the drain on the population.
to compensate, you need to have lots of pop, which requires heavy investment in farms, thus increase your points and put you into range of  players with uch smaller populations but with elites (or heavy units).
And no matter what you say, your army of light units won't stand a chance agaisnt them ..... after all you aren't playing an AI with fixed parameters but reckless human players who will pick on each and everyone of your tactical weaknesses.
.... plus try to siege boxed forts with an army of light units against defenders with heavy or elites ... good luck 

I'm not saying that there isn't any use for light units, but that they are serious drawbacks too, that one should consider long and hard before prefering them to more advanced units

have fun,

[brianyoo89]

i dont get some things..
it's written that light spear will not be as effective against higher class cavalry.
but someone mentioned:
"it seems that the penalty Spearmen are supposed to have against Heavy and Elite Cavalry is not working.  So again, light Spearmen are more effective against H. Cavalry than H. Spearmen"

? is that true???

what i initially thought was heavy cavalry will not have any disadvantage in dealing with light units.
if the light spear is not effective against higher class cavalry, then heavy cavalry will be good because:

1. heavy cavalry do not have disadvantage over light spears because there's difference in class
2. light cavalry already have advantage in fighting against archers (x4) swords (x2), so heavy cavalry will give more advantage
3. heavy cavalry have more hp + damage against light cavalry, so it will be stronger than light cavalry

btw i'm playing in realm 63.
tell me if i'm wrong.

[Starbuck]

jams was messing with you ...
all spears have a 4x bonus against cavalry, but because heavier .cavalry have more resistance and attacking power, they will naturally resist more efficiently to lighter spears ... but that doesn't mean they are immune to it, quite the contrary at high attack and armor tech values

heavy cavalry is stronger than light cavalry - fact
heavy cavalry cost more than light cavalry - fact
on a attacking power/ressource cost ratio, heavy cavalry seems less interesting than light cavalry - fact
on a practical basis, which troop is more likely to win a battle : heavy cavalry - fact

most IO battles are not meant to be on equal footing.
the only thing for sure, is that one wins, one loses .... which ones do you want to be ?


have fun,

[jams]

Yeah, sorry if I sounded harsh - simulating battles (and doing battles) is exactly what I'm asking for.  And I would really appreciate a comment on how exactly the heavy units are better if we ignore all other factors and just look at cost/net worth. - because I admit, all humor aside - I am a noob and a bit confused by this. So sims away (remember that points in battle reports/calculator are inflated by 10% for light units, so we will take this into account):

2.000 Light Spears
 vs 1.000 Heavy Cavalry - 67:374 points loss (actual loss 60:374)

1.200 H.Spears
vs 1.000 Heavy Cavalry - 72:374 points loss

(2.000 Spears + 2.000 Archers + 2.000 Swords + 2.000 Cavalry)
vs (1.000 Spears + 1.000 Archers + 1.000 Swords + 1.000 Cavalry) - 283:498 (actual: 255:448)

(2.000 Spears + 2.000 Archers + 2.000 Swords + 2.000 Cavalry)
vs (600 H. Spears  + 600 H.Archer + 600 H.Swords + 600 H.Cavalry) - 261:448 (actual 235:448)
(all results average of 20 runs)

(2.000 Spears + 2.000 Archers + 2.000 Swords + 2.000 Cavalry)
vs (1.000 Spears + 1.000 Archers + 1.000 Swords + 1.000 Cavalry) - 283:498 (actual: 255:448)

(1.200 H.Spears + 1.200 H.Archers + 1.200 H.Swords + 1.200 H. Cavalry)
vs (1.000 Spears + 1.000 Archers + 1.000 Swords + 1.000 Cavalry) - 276:498 (actual 276:448)
(all results average of 20 runs)

This is all at 7/7/7/8 research which is the minimum research for Heavy units.
Case 1) Lights do 20% better
Case 2) Lights do 8% better
Case 3) Lights do 8% better

Real Battles I've had, substituting for heavy gives me bigger difference than 8%.

[ymcop]

Lights can surely be good anytime - but thats for a pillager.
Much gold, he can spend for researching medicine. Or in any way, population isnt really needed, because the income they bring from many pillages can stabilize the loss of production.
I have had 1.3M light units and 500k elites units and it did miracles. But I wouldnt try it if I wasnt a pillager 
Trust me, I can understand  your logic, but it doesnt seem reasonable for a warrior. It is reasonable for a pillager or a pillager-farmer.
Difference between those too? Pillager can defend against some of the warriors, because he doesnt have too many points of economy.
Farmer-pillager runs for his life constantly.
That seems a bit off topic though, but of course, since there are many opinions on the matter, better for the creator of the thread, he can judge on all those he has read on the replies.

Sure, I'm at his point.
I did few big match with huge military points than 1000 match with 2 military point. Light Cavalry is the only one I use to bring gold home.

Case 1) Lights do 20% better
Case 2) Lights do 8% better
Case 3) Lights do 8% better

Well, that also true, wow. Anyone can explain?

P/S: Starbuck I've send you a PM.

[jams]

I somehow missed these posts light night...shouldn't post when feeling sick

Lights can surely be good anytime - but thats for a pillager...
... I have had 1.3M light units and 500k elites units and it did miracles. But I wouldnt try it if I wasnt a pillager 

I agree that much changes as game progresses, lots of other factors will come into play.  But for R63 which is fresh into the heavy phase for most players, these are moot points.  The current field here is 5-15k points, 20k +/- units total, so the original question and my comments pertain a clear state of few thousand of light vs heavy soldiers.  And yes, we're talking v4a - don't know how this translates to the other versions, but something is screwed up with lights here.

jams was messing with you ...
all spears have a 4x bonus against cavalry, but because heavier .cavalry have more resistance and attacking power, they will naturally resist more efficiently to lighter spears ... but that doesn't mean they are immune to it, quite the contrary at high attack and armor tech values

heavy cavalry is stronger than light cavalry - fact
heavy cavalry cost more than light cavalry - fact
on a attacking power/ressource cost ratio, heavy cavalry seems less interesting than light cavalry - fact
on a practical basis, which troop is more likely to win a battle : heavy cavalry - fact

Unless I'm terribly mistaken (or there is some hidden armor value for heavy cavalry), it's the light units that gain most from the attack and armor upgrades.  Lets compare 100 Spearmen vs 60 Heavy Spearmen (same cost/networth when built).

at 7 melee
100 spearmen damage = 100 x 17 = 1.700
60 H.spearmen damage = 100 x 22 = 1.320
28,8% more for light

at 12 melee, just before Elites
100 spearmen damage = 100 x 22 = 2.200
60 H.spearmen damage = 60 x 27 = 1.620
35,8% more for light

The theory, calculator (I've already given examples for h.cav) and practice are much against the facts you state (at 7/8 upgrades):
100 Light Cavalry = 4.700 damage, 40.700 hp
60 H. Cavalry = 4.020 damage, 36.420 hp

The higher individual HP helps heavier units survive better in some situations, but as soon as armies grow above 1000 soldiers of the type, it becomes pretty much irrelevant.  I have a fairly large army and kill record and I've tried substituting heavy units for the lights in many of the battles I've done (in the calculator) and pretty much every time lights have come out better.  Especially as you say, in the most common case of one sided battles IO is designed around.  I still fail to see how exactly heavy are better? (and tbh it pisses me cause I was looking forward to them)

[alhatal]

If you want to make a simulation which prove which unit is better. Dont put there all units... make battle like this:

10k l. horses vs. 4k l. spears
10k l. horse  vs. 2k h. spears

repeat this battle 10 times, sum results then divide it by 10. Then you have good result.


Your battles xan't prove anything, whinch unit is better because you don't know who is fighting with spears.
Why do i think that h. units are better than light? Because they have more HP. 200HP is better than 2x100 because it's easier to kill 100hp unit than 200hp unit. DO battles in the way i write above.

[jams]

2K heavy spears don't compare to 4K light spear in any way.  The correct correlation would be 2.400 H. Spear to 4.000 Light spear (as already explained).  But be my guest - do the example you suggested and tell me the results.

Besides I already made the pure comparison of light an heavy spearmen versus cavalry in Case 1.  And I already wrote that I did the results as average of 20 (not 10) runs - average meaning I summed them up and divided them by the number of runs (not that it matters when you compare 1v1 unit type).  And I did the additional comparison with added troops only because makatas requested it in the previous post.  And if you manage to even remotely understand the simulations done in Cases 2 and 3 you will see IT'S IRRELEVANT who fights who.

FFS, does anyone read more than the first two words of the posts???

Indulge me, do the comparison you suggest and report the results, it will not take you more than 5 minutes. Maybe then we can have an educated discussion.