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Author Topic: Mechanics of the battle  (Read 44493 times)
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samyoboy
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« Reply #135 on: October 22, 2010, 03:39:20 AM »

Ok if seige/garrison battle goes under 50 morale is chance army with flee and you lose. Game has been this way over 5 years. *pardon* You need 50+ morale to win without chance of loss. You posted a report of a pillage. reports must be 7 days old before them. Making risky attacks that go under 50 morale is great fun and creates suspense. It's 1 of the best features of this game. *Smiley*
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Warwiller
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« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2012, 18:35:28 PM »

The density of the fighting units is determined ONLY in the beginning of each battle and the following principles are followed. :
1. Minimal number of units is 50;
2. The unit consists of the same type soldiers
3. The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100.
4. Not all units have the same number of soldiers. The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.

(1) what does this mean?  *gamer*
 
 1. what is the "density of the fighting units"?
     A) how dense they are?  *hmm*

 2. additionally, what do you mean by the "the beginning"?
     A) do you mean the beginning of the battle process?
         a) if so: what is the significance of the "density of the fighting units" being determined ONLY at "the beginning" ?
         b) if not: when?

 3. does "the following principles are followed" mean, in a battle, the following rules are applied?
    (i ask this because i'am not sure of the meaning first phrase of the sentence)
 
 4. i initially interpreted "Minimal number of units is 50", as, "the minimum number of units you can have in a battle is 50."
      however,
      "The unit consists of the same type soldiers" implies that a unit is not a unit (e.g. 1 spearman, 1 swordsman, etc.)
      therefore,
      what is a unit?
      (for those of you who are interested: "The unit consists of the same type soldiers" does not mean "a unit is a class of soldier" (e.g. spearmen,       
       swordsmen, etc.) since it fails to specify. this is especially true if the definition is listed under "battle principles followed during combat".)
 
 5. "The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real
    numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100."  *locker*
     A) what is the subject: "The size of the units"?
     (note: if you have dedicated yourself to answering this, in any manner of speaking, just provide a single definition for each unknown term)
     B) what is the significance of "as", in this sentence?
      a) does it mean "because"?
      b) does it mean "like"?
     C) what is the mathematical equivalent of "consecutively divided"?
     D) what is the english equivalent of "each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100"?
      a) does it represent a number?
     E) how does this relate to "rules applied in the battle process" (if that is a correct translation)?
     (note: if any indefinitely specified people feel inclined to respond with something like, "read the manual": i have, and i can't say that tells me
      anything new. i could say the short and complete manuals don't provide information (they do). however, there are notable shortcomings when it
      comes to structure, organization, clarity and value, when you're in a situation where you're in the mood to convert one of the various coded         
      messages floating around the imperiaonline-related section of the internet, into plain text)
 
 6. if i have the meaning of "units" defined, is there any other obscure term in the following sentence: "Not all units have the same number of soldiers.
     The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.", such as "incomplete", in this specific context, that would allow full access to this
     statement?
 7.   *PAINT*

(2) its interesting watching people enter various different and interesting stages of involvement.
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_rico
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« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2012, 23:42:38 PM »

let me explain it to you on example:

Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces). A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece.

You have 10 000 spears and 10 000 archers (light) so your army will be divided:
50 x 200 spears
50 x 200 archers

If you lose in first round 50 spears in each piece of army in the next round you will have:
50 x 150 units
50 x 200 units

When one unit disappears, your army is not divided again. One of your piece (random one) is fighting twice.

What else need explanations?
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Warwiller
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« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2012, 23:50:03 PM »

let me explain it to you on example:

Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces). A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece.

You have 10 000 spears and 10 000 archers (light) so your army will be divided:
50 x 200 spears
50 x 200 archers

If you lose in first round 50 spears in each piece of army in the next round you will have:
50 x 150 units
50 x 200 units

When one unit disappears, your army is not divided again. One of your piece (random one) is fighting twice.

What else need explanations?

if this is designed to help me achieve a general understanding in order to answer the questions i posed, then thanks. it would have been more simple, though, just to replace each question with a definite answer.  *YES*

however, it does bring up many more questions.

"Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces)."
does this mean the total number of units (soldiers) in your army is divided into 100 "factions" before the battle process?

what if your army is not divisible by 100? if you have 7328 soldiers, would the remaining soldiers be placed in a "group" or "piece" less in number than the other "pieces"?

are these "groups" or "factions" the "units" referred to previously?
 
"A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece."

how do the rounds interact with this?
round 1 is the archer round. does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect? specifically, on who they target, for example? more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?
(could you explain, or refer to a website that explains, with a detailed description, how the rounds work? i dont understand, for example, what it is exactly the archers do after round 1; it says they "fight like everyone else")

also, if 50 light spearmen meet 50 light spearmen, do they always cancel each other out? is this true for other units?

if a "piece" wins another "piece", what determines the amount of soldiers the winning "piece" has at the end? does the winning "piece" continue to meet random other "pieces"?

additionally, how does the formation work with this?

are the light horsemen on the flanks, as well as "divided" into "pieces"? how do they attack? or is it that each random "piece" each "piece" of horsemen meet, the horsemen are given some sort of bonus for being on the flank?

i can only evaluate that portion of your response right now. *Grin* i hope you can answer each question separately and clearly. its probably difficult,  since the answers are probably interrelated. why is it, though, there is no description of this aspect of battle mechanics in some official manual, or information site?
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_rico
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« Reply #139 on: February 29, 2012, 20:59:03 PM »

1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided.
2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal.
3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others.
4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again.
5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group.
6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round.
7. it is clearly described on the first page of the topic we are talking in.

Try to find the old battle calculator, from the beginnings. It shows many more informations including number of groups. I do not have it anymore.
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Warwiller
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« Reply #140 on: March 02, 2012, 01:55:57 AM »

1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided.
2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal.
3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others.
4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again.
5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group.
6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round.
7. it is clearly described on the first page of the topic we are talking in.

Try to find the old battle calculator, from the beginnings. It shows many more informations including number of groups. I do not have it anymore.


1.
R: " "Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces)." "
W: "does this mean the total number of units (soldiers) in your army is divided into 100 "factions" before the battle process?"
R: "1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided."

by 100? okay, thats nice.

2.
W: "what if your army is not divisible by 100? if you have 7328 soldiers, would the remaining soldiers be placed in a "group" or "piece" less in number than the other "pieces"?"
R: "2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal."

okay, got it.
to answer the question specifically, though, could you tell me whether one remaining group would contain less soldiers than the rest, or all the groups would contain differing but close numbers of soldiers? if it its the former say, yes. if its the latter say, no. if its neither, kindly explain.


3.
W: "are these "groups" or "factions" the "units" referred to previously?"   *pardon*

4.
R: "A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...) When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece."
W:  "how do the rounds interact with this? round 1 is the archer round. does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect? specifically, on who they target, for example? more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?
(could you explain, or refer to a website that explains, with a detailed description, how the rounds work? i dont understand, for example, what it is exactly the archers do after round 1; it says they "fight like everyone else")"
R: "3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others."

 *offtopic*

which is irrelevant to the following questions:

A. "how do the rounds interact with this?" (where, this, is your army being divided to 100 groups and encountering random enemy groups)
B. "does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect?"
  a. "specifically, on who they target, for example?"
  b. "more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?"

the only section of my post i can vaguely relate it to is where i say that i have only a very general idea of the how rounds effect fighting; for example, how the archers function after round 1, and the exact meaning of "fight like everyone else". in which case, i have no idea what the "same rul;es as all the others" would be, and i wouldn't exactly be helping myself if i thought archers were a separate type of soldiers, in the sense you conveyed. *Grin*

my next question was:


5.
W: "if 50 light spearmen meet 50 light spearmen, do they always cancel each other out? is this true for other units?"

to which the corresponding answer, i linked it to, was:

R: "4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again."

if this is the question you intended to answer with your 4th answer, then:

it fails to constitute an answer to the question, but it does provide additional information, since:

it doesn't state the definite result of an encounter between two opposing groups of 50 light spearmen, or whether the result is true for other units. or, if the result is not definite, the factors coming into play in that situation.

but, it does indicate that the less the number of soldiers, the more frequently the soldier groups are required to fight against opposing groups, if i interpreted it right.

in any case, thank you. *Grin*


6.

W: "if a "piece" wins another "piece", what determines the amount of soldiers the winning "piece" has at the end? does the winning "piece" continue to meet random other "pieces"?"

R: "5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group."

if this is not the intended to answer to my 6th question, then i apologize. just tell me which ones which.

if it is, then:

according to the provided information on light spearmen, they have an attack of 10 + (level of melee attack researched), which is different from 5 x 10.

it does little to answer the general question, since it focuses specifically on spearmen with "5 x 10 attack" being able to kill soldiers with 500 hp.
which brings up other questions:
if i assume you're talking about a group of light spearmen with "5 x 10 attack", meeting a group of enemy soldiers all with 500 hp, what would occur, exactly, if the spearmen had 500 hp also, and the opposing soldiers had "5 x 10 attack"? would they cancel each other out?

if it is complicated to answer the original, 6th question, due to the various possible situations, i don't mind if you give a brief explanation of these situations and provide an example. also, as close as possible to a yes or no answer to the second part of the 6th question.


7.
W: "additionally, how does the formation work with this?

are the light horsemen on the flanks, as well as "divided" into "pieces"? how do they attack? or is it that each random "piece" each "piece" of horsemen meet, the horsemen are given some sort of bonus for being on the flank?"

and

R: "6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round. " do not seem to match, so i'll respond to your 6th answer based on my 4th question:

W: "how do the rounds interact with this?" (where, this = division process)

in order to truly understand your 6th answer, we need to achieve at least a basic understanding of "each round".

of which there is none.

however, your 6th answer describes that before each round, the soldiers undergo the "division process", according to one of my possible interpretations of "Groups to fight are randomly taken" "before each round" .

does this imply that, before round 1, for example, the soldiers are divided into 100 segments, each containing only a single class of soldier, and the groups or segments randomly encounter opposing groups and segments. then round 1 begins?

if so, which it probably isn't, unless the person responsible for it being like that is a nut (which is possible): how many encounters between each group does it take for round 1 to begin?


additional question:

W: "why is it, though, there is no description of this aspect of battle mechanics in some official manual, or information site?"

R: "7. it is clearly ( *hahaha*) described on the first page of the topic we are talking in."

which isn't an official manual, or official information site, unless i'am wrong (which is possible). by official information site, i mean a site dedicated to explaining to explaining various aspects of the game in detail. not a forum, where people post on generally any topic in the game with varying degrees of seriousness.

  write

at any rate, if the chain of responses are going to keep angling of into a various directions, i can live without knowing what exactly the original poster was trying to say  *Grin*
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_rico
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« Reply #141 on: March 02, 2012, 19:25:30 PM »

The first post about the mechanic of the battle was postd y regular user but it has been approved by the programmers.

I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own.
 I can explain the mechanic again, step by step. It is so simple that I can not understand that you ask so many questions abut it.

Step 1
Army is being divided into groups
   Groups: -are made of one type of units
              -there is no more than 100 groups
              -the system makes try to create more less same number of units for both players
              -the division is made on the beginning of the battle, once
Step 2
   Battle -each round, the system create pairs
            -if there is difference in number of groups (I have 76, you have 70),  some of them will fight once again (randomly chosen 6 of your groups fight witch my 6 groups)
            -archers are not privileged group, they are in the lottery as any other group
            -there is no formations, try to think like computer. It adds bonus to the attack, that is how it works (example bellow)
   Hitpoints: -total attack is calculated this way: number of soldiers x  (base attack + mele/range attack + alliance bonus) x terrain bonus x "unit interaction bonus*"
                 -this total attack is being given to opposite group. If my group has 1000 attack, it will be subtracted from your group. How? System will kill 1,2,3,4,5... soldier until the total attack is reached.

*unit interaction bonus: it is the multiplier when archers fight with spears (archer has 4x bonus) etc.

             
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Warwiller
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« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2012, 16:09:24 PM »

The first post about the mechanic of the battle was postd y regular user but it has been approved by the programmers.

I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own.
 I can explain the mechanic again, step by step. It is so simple that I can not understand that you ask so many questions abut it.

Step 1
Army is being divided into groups
   Groups: -are made of one type of units
              -there is no more than 100 groups
              -the system makes try to create more less same number of units for both players
              -the division is made on the beginning of the battle, once
Step 2
   Battle -each round, the system create pairs
            -if there is difference in number of groups (I have 76, you have 70),  some of them will fight once again (randomly chosen 6 of your groups fight witch my 6 groups)
            -archers are not privileged group, they are in the lottery as any other group
            -there is no formations, try to think like computer. It adds bonus to the attack, that is how it works (example bellow)
   Hitpoints: -total attack is calculated this way: number of soldiers x  (base attack + mele/range attack + alliance bonus) x terrain bonus x "unit interaction bonus*"
                 -this total attack is being given to opposite group. If my group has 1000 attack, it will be subtracted from your group. How? System will kill 1,2,3,4,5... soldier until the total attack is reached.

*unit interaction bonus: it is the multiplier when archers fight with spears (archer has 4x bonus) etc.             

"it has been approved by the programmers."

which is subtly different from, say, an official site allowing access to basic information regarding a certain aspect of the game. in other words, the question still figures.




"I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own."

naturally. in which case, we have a broad set of interrelated topics overlapping one another due to a series of misunderstandings that stem from two different ways of looking at things:

A. in order to understand something, you often need to apply careful questioning. in this case, in the form of several fundamental questions, each addressing a specific area within the topic.
B. a set of answers, numbered based on general elements associated with the questions, is sufficient to answer something.

this is what allows a simple idea to appear confusing, and sometimes inconsistent. in other words, to avoid confusion, and to prevent an idea that appears "so simple" to seem inconsistent, its advisable to answer separate questions specifically and definitely.




since responding to obscure answers with further question results in nothing interesting, i can start by identifying certain basic elements:

the baseline principle in this topic is:

1. before battle, the total number of units in an army are divided by 100, where each division contains 1 unit class.

is this true?

2. divisions from opposing armies are paired randomly (to fight each other).

is this true?

3. A. spearman > cavalry, B. swordsmen > archers/spearmen, C. cavalry > swordsmen, D. archers > spearmen

is this true?

-if both 2. and 3. are correct, that allows for an element of luck to come into play.

-if i thought archers were a "privileged" class, i wouldnt be curious about their fighting techniques the way i was. if iam going to have to explain this every post, then its going to take a long time for you to answer the original question directly.




a separate set of questions related to this, is:

1. is there such a thing as army formation?

2. is there such a thing as rounds?

 *REDX*

thanks in advance, sorry for the mass confusion.
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_rico
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« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2012, 17:41:02 PM »

1-3 TRUE

Yes, there is some kind of lottery in the battle.

There is no such thing like formation BUT <20% of your army (spears, swords, cavalry WITHOUT archers) is a flank. At the flank there is cavalry. If your cavalry number is less than 20% ==> all of them fights with flank bonus. If you have more than 20%. the rest of them fights without bonus. Here is order: light > heavy > elite. It means that light horses goes on flank then if there is still some "space" heavy horses goes. If there is still "space" elite horses gous until the 200% is reached. But as as said before, there is no formations in a strict meaning. It adds only bonus to the attack.

Yes, there are rounds. I suggest you to look in your battle report, it shows all rounds, all given damage, fortress hp etc. etc.
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omghiha
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« Reply #144 on: June 23, 2012, 11:14:04 AM »

you to look in your battle repor  *sos*
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