Imperia Online International

IO - Classic and Version 4 Realms => Questions => Topic started by: isolde on February 03, 2009, 16:42:55 PM



Title: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: isolde on February 03, 2009, 16:42:55 PM
How the battle calculator works is still a big mystery in IO. Very few people can explain well the mechanics of a battle which depends a lot on something called density of the fighting parties. What does that mean: if you attack someone with 2000 soldiers - they are distributed into several "parties', "teams" or "units", call it whatever you want. But how exactly and how many soldiers are in each unit ? The battle depends much on that but few people know it.

That is why, for the enlightenment of the international community I am translation this post from Skeletan, one of the admittedly best ever players in Imperia Online. You can find the original here:

http://www4.imperiaonline.org/forums/bg/index.php?topic=15435.0

The density of the fighting units is determined ONLY in the beginning of each battle and the following principles are followed. :
1. Minimal number of units is 50;
2. The unit consists of the same type soldiers
3. The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100.
4. Not all units have the same number of soldiers. The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.

Example 1:

spears = 441;
archers= 58

Determination of the total number of soldiers = 499
division by 1 = 499>100  therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 1 soldier
division by 2 = 249.5 > 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 2 soldiers
................
........................
division by 5 = 99.8 < 100 therefore the size of the unit is 5 soldiers

Formation of the fighting units:
441:5 = 88.2 (88 fighting units with 5 spears each and 0.2*5 = 1 spear in the last unit of spears, so altogether 89 units of spears)
58:5 = 11,6 (11 fighting units with 5 archers each and 0.6*5 = 3 archers in the last unit of archers, so altogether 12 units of archers)

Total number of fighting units: 89+ 12= 101


Example 2:

spears = 441;
archers= 59;

Determination of the total number of soldiers = 500
division by 1 = 500>100  therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 1 soldier
division by 2 = 250.0 > 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 2 soldiers
................
........................
division by 5 = 100 = 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 5 soldiers
division by 6 = 83.3 < 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is 6 soldiers

Formation of the fighting units:
441:6 = 73.5 (73 fighting units with 6 spears each and 0.5*6 = 3 spears in the last unit of spears, so altogether 74 units of spears)
59:6 = 9.83 (9 fighting units with 6 archers each and 0.83*6 = 5 archers in the last unit of archers, so altogether 10 units of archers)

Total number of fighting units: 74+ 10= 84

Every unit receives a consecutive number. Based on a random principle, each fighting unit meets in battle an enemy fighting unit during each round. When the number of units is not the same as the enemy has, one unit can participate several times in battle (from the army which has less fighting units). The purpose is, that all units participate at least once. If the army of player 1 has remainining only 10 units, and the army of player 2 has 50 units, then in the first part of the round, those 10 units will be fighting against 10 randomly chosen enemy units, after that the same 10 units will be put against another 10 of the enemy army units. In this way, those 10 units will take part 5 times each in the battle.

If the fighting units of player 1 are 10 and the units of player 2 are 11, then based on a random principle, 10 units are fighting with 10 units of the enemy troops. After that once again 1 unit is randomly chose, which is to fight the last 1 unit of the enemy, which has not yet taken part in the battle.

If player 1 has 10 fighting units, and player 2 has 12, then based on a random principle those 10 units fight with 10 of the enemy units. After that, 1 more unit from the 10 is randomly chosen to fight the 11th unit of the enemy. After that again, once more, 1 unit is randomly chosen to fight the 12th unit of the enemy, but so that it is not the same unit who has already been in battle for the second time against the 11th enemy unit.
Because the different types of soldiers have different bonuses, the random principle of units meeting each other in battle lead to different end results in battle although the beginning army is the same...


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on February 09, 2009, 13:51:01 PM
I have been waiting for information about the mechanics of battle.  Originally posted in Russian, now translated to Mathematicals (with a few adjectives sprinkled)....  *hmm* I am waiting for the concise English-language version to answer the question: What factors impact the battle.  Put another way, to what do I need to attend when preparing for battle (calculators, screens, spy info, map...). As a noob, because noobs read these important posts before they can master every tool so they can then use the tools, I would like to know before what should I know before I send troops off to their/my doom?  Even the battle calculator has exploded offering the deadend button: "CHECK."

I do not even know if I am secure in my own fortress.  *tired*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on February 14, 2009, 21:40:23 PM
As for being secure in my own fortress 3 [fort 3] with 400 Archers at level 7, it seems if someone brings a battering ram and 1500 swords, 200 archers (0 melee, 0 range, 0 armor) I am cooked according to the calculator.  So much for my armor, tactics and range stats.

Imagine an unwashed army of 1500 sword-wielding peasants takes your fortress, which you have built-up, fortified, and populated with improved troops. 

So is the calculator broken?  Am I safe?  If not - how can I ever be?


Also, another one of those answers without statistical involvement: BEFORE I am attacked, do I get a note saying hostile troops are on their way?  Or is it a less romantic and less honorable discovery I make by looking at the village picture to see a mob around my fortress hurling more than insults? Will I get an email saying my fortress is under attack?  Or do I just suddenly see destruction and my numbers drop?

Will I even know I have been attacked or should I assume every computer bug is an attack: more of something that should not be there is a victory and less is a loss?

OK.  I am a total noob.  But these are questions people new to the game would want to know and should be told.  Veterans and staffers everywhere be bored now.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: alhatal on February 14, 2009, 21:59:38 PM
1 hour befor attack there is an icon with two crossed swords. When you click you can see who is attacking. From which province to which province, attack type, number of soliders and time to attack.

You can calculate your chances on webcalculator implemented in the game or download old calc.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on February 14, 2009, 22:24:27 PM
Thank you. 

Can you provide me with some answer to my other question?  I cannot believe a large mob of peasants with 1 tree trunk will overtake my fortress.

I mean, compared to those peasants, my troops are heavy hitters (military Academy 3, armor 2, tactics 2, melee 6, range 7).  Can I really sweep everyone away with 1500 sword + 200 arrows of this?



Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on February 14, 2009, 22:38:24 PM
please use the Battle Calculator to simulate potential cases.
and for your info, 1500 swordsmen can definitely take a fort 3 in plains with archers in garrison :)

Have fun,


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on February 14, 2009, 22:46:12 PM
Thanks.
So I am reading the calculator correctly  *YAHOO*- and it's true.    *cry*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: jams on February 24, 2009, 13:44:39 PM
The balance is achieved by the honor/morale loss for attacking players with less than 1/2 your points (net worth).  In your example the 1.500 swordsmen are 203 points, 400 archers are 27 points, so it will be easy for the defending player to have much lower points than the attacking.

Forts are most often defended by forcing the attacking army to flee by dropping its morale, not by defeating it.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: smruti on February 24, 2009, 13:52:03 PM
Nice post Isolde  *bear* ..only few people knows these stuffs and outta those few people, only few posts what they know   *cool*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: terry on February 26, 2009, 07:43:11 AM
Hi,

I'm new here with the battle thingy.
I have 1500 army yet i could lose to 100 archers and 100 swordman (in the level3 fortress)  *xxx*
Can anyone comment or advice on these?
Thanks


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on February 26, 2009, 14:11:12 PM
it's not army size, but army mix that matters ... if your army is nothing but spearmen, then they'll be cut to pieces by the archers in garrison :)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on February 26, 2009, 15:43:53 PM
may i ask what avengers IV is, isolde?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Radooo on February 26, 2009, 18:18:08 PM
may i ask what avengers IV is, isolde?

her alliance *freak*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on February 27, 2009, 03:15:13 AM
her alliance *freak*

y, but why IV? why not III? :D


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: moyadrl on February 27, 2009, 04:08:59 AM
y, but why IV? why not III? :D
It's xpertiza fault  *hihi*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: isolde on February 27, 2009, 04:42:30 AM
It's xpertiza fault  *hihi*

It was my idea first  *Angry* And then Radooo copied me and X copied me, even KOPSi copied me, thank god we didnt have to reach Avengers 1001  *xxx*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on February 27, 2009, 10:43:18 AM
It was my idea first  *Angry* And then Radooo copied me and X copied me, even KOPSi copied me, thank god we didnt have to reach Avengers 1001  *xxx*

yet :P but nice sign btw


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Radooo on February 27, 2009, 13:45:43 PM
It was my idea first  *Angry* And then Radooo copied me

I upgraded your idea *hihi*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on February 27, 2009, 16:00:00 PM
lol, he does has a thing for alliance names, doesn`t he?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: smruti on February 27, 2009, 16:29:09 PM
yet :P but nice sign btw

signs are on order , we shall see in 1-2 days  *sos*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: terry on February 28, 2009, 03:03:40 AM
Thanks for the info


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on March 04, 2009, 03:38:28 AM
And I have to wait until my army returns all the way home before I can send it out to the next province of the SAME opponent.  Thus, an opponent with two provinces requires my entire army to travel FOUR TIMES the distance (there and back X2) for me to attack my opponent's two provinces with my entire force.  ???

That is stupid.  Has anyone heard of Sherman's March? 
This is a "mechanics of battle" information not covered in the maths.  Beware the long marches. They're linear equations.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on March 04, 2009, 04:02:09 AM
what are you talking about ? ... if you got, say military academy 4, you can send up to 4 simultaneous attack on the same player, same province or different provinces.
in you example, this mean that you can use any kind of combo with up to 4 attacks :

3 attacks on the same province + 1 on the second province (to score max mp points and burn all forts, thus obstructing any new research/building start)
2 attacks on each province, then 2 again when the first 2 have been resolved (so as to keep the pressure on your opponent)
4 attacks on 1 province, simultaneously or in escalation
2 attacks on each provinces + 2 attacks on a different target

.....

whatever, the combinations are for you to make ....

ps : IO is a MEDIEVAL game, not a 19th century simulation. It's more appropriate to talk about razzia tactics (ie: Moor and Arab style) or Agincourt than Yorktown siege (alright, late 18th) or Sadowa or Shiloh ....



Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on March 04, 2009, 12:16:13 PM
Common sense tells me that if me and my troops/posse/entourage/hangers on/disciples walk past a chocolate shop on the way to work, we can pick up a chocolate on the way to/from work/ultimate destination. And we can get the job done at work too.

We cannot carry more than our supply train can handle but we can beat hell out of the opposition along the way. No?  ???


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on March 04, 2009, 13:46:50 PM
Common sense tells me that if me and my troops/posse/entourage/hangers on/disciples walk past a chocolate shop on the way to work, we can pick up a chocolate on the way to/from work/ultimate destination. And we can get the job done at work too.

We cannot carry more than our supply train can handle but we can beat hell out of the opposition along the way. No?  ???

I don't know what your are talking about.
but first learn how to play using the rules, before wondering why you can't do as you dream on ....  *ok*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on March 05, 2009, 10:38:04 AM
I don't know what your are talking about.

The rules in application work like this:

Go forward and arrive at one target/target destination.
Go directly home after arriving at destination.

You can do this multiple times by splitting troop force and by building-up Military Academy.  BUT IF YOUR ENTIRE ARMY TRAVELS AS A GROUP, YOU CAN ONLY:
Go forward and arrive at one target/target destination.
Go directly home after arriving at destination.

So if you have a target destination of "E" and you start at "A," by travelling with your entire force you will by-pass "B," "C," and "D" targets and arrive only at "E".
 
... first learn how to play using the rules, before wondering why you can't do as you dream on ....  *ok*
So the rules are counter-intuitive to real world logic.   *SCRATCH*  hmmm.. who is using dream logic?  *hmm*  It's like I cannot stop for a coffee on my way to work.  I have to go get my coffee, return home and then go to work, returning directly home after work.

It's a constructive criticism of the game's fixed mathematical algorythim. Frankly, I am shocked :o that I cannot program a long journey with multiple stops along the route to/from the furthest destination.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on March 05, 2009, 11:06:34 AM
It's a constructive criticism of the game's fixed mathematical algorythim. Frankly, I am shocked :o that I cannot program a long journey with multiple stops along the route to/from the furthest destination.

Like I was saying : read the rules first, before daydreaming of what you would like IO to be ...  *tired*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on March 05, 2009, 11:08:48 AM
Like I was saying : read the rules first, before daydreaming of what you would like IO to be ...  *tired*


Would you be so kind to explain the rationale to me WHY I cannot make stops along the road? 

[edit] my point, not to be too obtuse about pointing it out, is that the rules in this case are counter intuitive. Unlike anyone's experience of real life - even yours, Starbuck, I think.  *hihi*  


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: alhatal on March 05, 2009, 12:26:01 PM
I can Explain. I have big army, we have war with your alliance. So i chose far far away target. My army is going there on my way is first oponent. I Pilage theur all provinces, destroy all fortress ang then my army is going to my destination. There it pilage all provinces and all fortress. I've spend 5 hours and i'va crusched 24 fortress and killed 24*200k peoplebecause i have big army.


People with big armies in a fewa days can completly crush big number of enemys. No one can survive. Your plans are ridiculous Eaven in you Medieval Total war you can not do such desctructin!

Dont wan't like it so don't play It. I WON'T be changed. For sure. Your complains are pointless.



Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Console_Cowboy on March 05, 2009, 13:21:41 PM
Okay.  *WALL*

I give up.  :head_hurts_kr:  +1 to me for capitulation.  *pardon*

BTW, I think there are problems with large armies already discussed here (http://www4.imperiaonline.org/forums/int/index.php?topic=14475.0).  And since large armies have a tendancy to shrink with active use, your explanation does not really hold water.  And even large armies can only carry a finite amount of spoils - a carry capacity which shrinks along with the size of the shrinking army.

I thought this was a game that rewarded a strategy of warfare .....  :hmmm:

For the record, I find the game interesting, and I am still just learning it.  I do notice inconsistencies to real life expectations, which can be adjusted.  But I am not asking for these adjustments to happen by pointing out (informing other noobs like me) that there is a counter-intuitive interface between the IO game and reality.  Understanding this incongruency will priviledge many strategic thinkers, and enable even noobs to better challenge the tired *tired* experts who have otherwise seen it all, done it all and got the IO T-shirt.  *hihi*

But let's not argue POVs.....  *rose*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tiger on March 05, 2009, 17:18:50 PM
Trust me, when you will play longer, you will see that 1 attack at 1 prov is best solution. And most of other game uses same concept. Because it really wouldnt be good if someone could destroy more oponents on the way.
For example in older realms where you know when someone is using his 6h offline time, you could send army to 100 of those players, pillaging them all, destroying all forts, taking all resources.  in only few hours. :)
you didnt argue, you just said your opinion, but this system has good logic.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Corvus on March 15, 2009, 01:04:59 AM
Cowboy, i know you know your banging your head against English-as-a-second-language effects multiplied by the unhelpful arrogance of some of the moderators here.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: isolde on March 15, 2009, 04:14:43 AM
Cowboy, i know you know your banging your head against English-as-a-second-language effects multiplied by the unhelpful arrogance of some of the moderators here.

Shut up, you a*****, its not the moderator's fault that Cowboy seems unable to comprehend some of the basic concepts of the game ! I know its in your blood, but you cant always attribute the consequences of your low intelligence to other people's abilities.


EDIT : no matter how much valid your opinion is, there is no need to call an a******, an a*****, a p****, a f***** or even a d***** .... please stay respectful  *stop*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tiger on March 15, 2009, 17:19:50 PM
Cowboy, i know you know your banging your head against English-as-a-second-language effects multiplied by the unhelpful arrogance of some of the moderators here.
If we are so unhelpful, who is then answering to all questions on forum?? Why other people understand what we want to say? I didnt see any of your post on forum where you answer some question about game. unless its related to our poor knowledge of english language then you enjoy to point that in every message on forum you post.
Its very interesting to read all posts on forum, 1000x answer to same questions because some people rather ask then search forum and be polite in every answer, no matter what hapends arround you and to you in real life. And every here and there comes some spammer to flood the forum or some smart guy asks dumb question and pretend he dont understand something. Or somebody comes with idea which were discussed 1000 times and all people are ok with it, but he thinks its stupid.
And we mods read, answer and react apropriatly on all of that. And at the end, there will always be guys who will think that we are unhelpfull, arrogant and we dont know language. If you wish to criticize us, find topic we didnt reply or we gave false information. And we give answers about game mechanic, concepts... Thats our job. I will apologize if i give false info or i dont know answer, but i wont apologize if i write allaince instead of alliance.

PS. I agree wit isolde, but i will always say things more politely. Luckily we have her to do dirty part.  *hihi*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 11, 2009, 18:59:15 PM
Well,

some very good points were made ... Let's play a bit ... Let's fully understand the flow of war on a very simple example

imagine the army goes on fortress siege [based on the provision that other factors are equal]

Attacking army:
Heavy Spears - 3000
Heavy Swords - 3400
Heavy Cavalry - 1000
Battering Arms - 30
Catapults - 30

Defending Army is in Fort 5 [plains] with fortification 5, with 2400 heavy archers in it
The usual strength of a fortress of lvl 5 is 1 152 000 hitpoints. As it is in plains it gets -20%. as fortification is 5, that is the final hit point of this fort is 1,152,000 + 30%. Is that right?

ok, let's calculate the war based on the fact that the morale of both sides equals 100.

Could you please continue this logic and explain every round starting from 1 and the results of each round?

thanks


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on April 11, 2009, 19:03:59 PM
u are wrong about fortification.No addition or substraction is made.plains -20% , means u multipy hp with 0.8 ,fortification 5 means u multiply with 1.5.
0.8*1.5=1.2 ,so walls are 20% stronger than basic wall from table information ,not 30%


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: smruti on April 11, 2009, 21:08:02 PM
I can Explain. I have big army, we have war with your alliance. So i chose far far away target. My army is going there on my way is first oponent. I Pilage theur all provinces, destroy all fortress ang then my army is going to my destination. There it pilage all provinces and all fortress. I've spend 5 hours and i'va crusched 24 fortress and killed 24*200k peoplebecause i have big army.


People with big armies in a fewa days can completly crush big number of enemys. No one can survive. Your plans are ridiculous Eaven in you Medieval Total war you can not do such desctructin!

Dont wan't like it so don't play It. I WON'T be changed. For sure. Your complains are pointless.



are u a farmer  *hihi* *hihi*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 12, 2009, 08:49:50 AM
thank you fragmaster
now ...
can you tell me what will happen in round 1?
who will fight?
what will be the damage of both sider?
what will be the final army of both sides?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Prieure on April 12, 2009, 09:58:26 AM
Example 1:
spears = 441;
archers= 58
the size of the unit is 5 soldiers
89 units of spears
12 units of archers
Total number of fighting units: 89+ 12= 101


Example 2:
spears = 441;
archers= 59;
the size of the unit is 6 soldiers
74 units of spears
10 units of archers
Total number of fighting units: 74+ 10= 84

Now . .  which is the more efficient fighting force . . . Fewer units with more soldiers or More units with fewer soldiers?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Polymeron on April 12, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
Just now noticed this post... +k to you Isolde, you have made me that much the wiser  *rose*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on April 12, 2009, 11:50:49 AM
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8623/prvedverundehx8.jpg)
(http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/4701/trecapanadaljeou9.jpg)
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6546/krajfieldaam8.jpg)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8422/opsadadb7.jpg)

its a part of my serbian manual hope it will help


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 12, 2009, 12:46:36 PM
thank you ...
i'll try to understand ...


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on April 12, 2009, 13:21:02 PM
Fragmaster ... depending on your arrows, why do you say that spears attack everyone, but that swordsmen and cavalry attack only each others ? ....
once in melee, any company of troops can attack any other company of troops, no matter what their type is :)

have fun,


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on April 12, 2009, 13:22:26 PM
yes it is full graph of arrows ,picture would look bad if i painted it all .


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 12, 2009, 15:42:44 PM
in the field fight

- every unit type attacks every unit type
- first two rounds are only for archers
- max 20 % of all the army are engaged in flank attack [but only cavalry]

is that right? what else can be said about the field fight?
how is morale drop calculates? sometimes there is 2, somethimes 4 ???


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on April 12, 2009, 15:46:25 PM
go read the complete manual ... http://www4.imperiaonline.org/forums/int/index.php?topic=26.0

morale loss per round is 4 points +/- up to 3 pointsdepending on which sides inflict more losses to the others, and by what margins (1 points = 50% more losses, 2 points = 150%)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 12, 2009, 16:04:16 PM
what about fort siege?

will the first 2 rounds be only for arches again?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on April 12, 2009, 16:39:45 PM
Nope first 2 rounds are for siege weapons til the end, then archers til the end, then melee-based infantry til then end


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 12, 2009, 17:03:06 PM
so, during fortress siege:

siege weapons engage from the first round and fight till the end
first two rounds are for only siege weapons
from round 3 archers engage and fight till the end

so the melee-based infantry engages starting 4-th round till the end?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: chegewara on April 12, 2009, 17:06:58 PM
not exactly, from:
1st round - catapults, trebuchets
2nd round - high archers, light archers and elite archers
3rd round - battering rams and melee attack soldiers *cool*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 13, 2009, 19:14:13 PM
aha ...
ok thank you


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 18, 2009, 13:37:17 PM
please help me to calculate what the level of fortification

fort lvl6 - 10,506,240 hitpoints
province - Mountains

Is this right way:

       10,506,240
---------------------- = ??
4,608,000 * 1.2 * 1.2


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: sbamber on April 18, 2009, 13:44:27 PM
Fortification level 9... if you dont feel like doing the maths u can use this link: http://www.codegrrrl.com/imperia/index.php?a=calc_battle


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 18, 2009, 14:29:55 PM
thanks for the link
I know that
what I am asking is not the math problem

I am talkeing about the method


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: chegewara on April 18, 2009, 14:35:23 PM
method is simple:
              10,506,240(HP from report)
---------------------- =                     XX
4,608,000(6 lvl) * 1.2(mountains)

XX = (1,9 - 1)*10 - this is fortifications level *cool*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: coconut on April 19, 2009, 22:07:40 PM
why only 1.2?
yes the fort has 20%+
but what about defence 20%?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on April 19, 2009, 22:26:08 PM
why only 1.2?
yes the fort has 20%+
but what about defence 20%?

don't confuse bonus given to the fort's hp and the bonus given to the defenders (troops)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Flanger on May 13, 2009, 14:10:43 PM
More I think about it, more it confuses me to be honest.

I was thinking to make an application (calculator maybe) where I'd insert my army units,
it would sum them and then start dividing them by natural numbers starting from 1,
iterations would continue until the result was below 100 so in the end getting the increment
(which would be soldier's quantity) and group numbers.

But what does it give me... There are too many aspects that are still either concealed or so random
that you can't use that calculations to favor you in battle.

First of all, everything we calculate here is only for first round, nobody knows a hell what will happen
in second round. Ofc it would be nice to predict first round and try to have for example more groups/units
call em however you want, so they fight with less groups of enemy army, but if you think again its automatically
determined by your army quantity. And its natural, that attacker will attack when he has more army than the defender.
Nobody would send his/her army on suicide.

But if you look from the other side its void that a single soldier can change the whole layout and calculations of groups.
But still the questions are - What does it give us? How can we rule them for our favor?

Even if we precisely calculate our army group densities and our opponent's army group densities its still decided by
battle engine and from what I've read its still decided based on random principal. Of course that is why simulating the same battles
always give out different results of lost armies etc. But what in the end? Even if you spend night calculating everything precisely,
you either calculate for first round or if you're wise enough to also add their attack values, military research values etc etc..
you create application like old calc "kreposticalculator"...

Still you don't know how it will help you. Since even precise calculations won't give you definite answer. Groups/units are still taken by random.
We already have embedded calc into game, which does this job. Yes it conceals group numbers but what would it change for me.
I see the result in the end.

I thought about three things in conclusion.

1) This topic is created to stop retarded questions which look like "Why do I get different stats when I simulate same battle all over again?"
2) This topic is created just to explain how IO's battle "engine" works so users don't bug moderators/administrators/other stuff members
to explain it to them, but the hidden info revealed here doesn't improve anyone's effectiveness in battle.
3) I'm so noob, that I miss the main point and can't understand how that knowledge and calculations can help me be more effective in offence and defence.

Any explanation or definition would be very appreciated.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tiger on May 13, 2009, 15:49:25 PM
Yes, this topic is made so the people will have where to read how battle calc works and we wont need to answer questions over and over again.
Battle calc is random so as in every random thing you cant know final outcome.
Knowledge about groups and all other things wont help you to make perfect combination. Knowledge about best unit to counter opponent most numerous unit will help you.
People wanted to know what is going on in battle in every round, so it is described there. thats all.
At large armies you wont benefit if you make all groups have 5k in size or the last will have only 3k soldiers.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Flanger on May 13, 2009, 17:39:38 PM
Thanks for the answer. I was confused by thinking how could it help me improve ;)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: reni on May 18, 2009, 10:07:16 AM
More I think about it, more it confuses me to be honest.

I was thinking to make an application (calculator maybe) where I'd insert my army units,
it would sum them and then start dividing them by natural numbers starting from 1,
iterations would continue until the result was below 100 so in the end getting the increment
(which would be soldier's quantity) and group numbers.

But what does it give me... There are too many aspects that are still either concealed or so random
that you can't use that calculations to favor you in battle.

First of all, everything we calculate here is only for first round, nobody knows a hell what will happen
in second round. Ofc it would be nice to predict first round and try to have for example more groups/units
call em however you want, so they fight with less groups of enemy army, but if you think again its automatically
determined by your army quantity. And its natural, that attacker will attack when he has more army than the defender.
Nobody would send his/her army on suicide.

But if you look from the other side its void that a single soldier can change the whole layout and calculations of groups.
But still the questions are - What does it give us? How can we rule them for our favor?

Even if we precisely calculate our army group densities and our opponent's army group densities its still decided by
battle engine and from what I've read its still decided based on random principal. Of course that is why simulating the same battles
always give out different results of lost armies etc. But what in the end? Even if you spend night calculating everything precisely,
you either calculate for first round or if you're wise enough to also add their attack values, military research values etc etc..
you create application like old calc "kreposticalculator"...

Still you don't know how it will help you. Since even precise calculations won't give you definite answer. Groups/units are still taken by random.
We already have embedded calc into game, which does this job. Yes it conceals group numbers but what would it change for me.
I see the result in the end.

I thought about three things in conclusion.

1) This topic is created to stop retarded questions which look like "Why do I get different stats when I simulate same battle all over again?"
2) This topic is created just to explain how IO's battle "engine" works so users don't bug moderators/administrators/other stuff members
to explain it to them, but the hidden info revealed here doesn't improve anyone's effectiveness in battle.
3) I'm so noob, that I miss the main point and can't understand how that knowledge and calculations can help me be more effective in offence and defence.

Any explanation or definition would be very appreciated.

Well, we know what happens in second round, in third and so on... Also suicide attacks are not rare at this game...  *pardon*

But you are right anyway, because the main point should be to stop the infinite posts about different results in questions section, or bugs section.

This topic is not so useful in real "era", but it was very important in Nomad Invasions, where you had a whole day to prepare your defence, knowing in advance enemy formation.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Flanger on May 18, 2009, 10:31:11 AM
Yea for Nomad's Invasion this is great info :)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: disf2 on July 11, 2009, 15:46:43 PM
Could somebody explain how does happen (occur) battle between two fighting units?
(Sorry for bad English) *pardon*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on July 12, 2009, 07:48:59 AM
it`s explained in the 1st post. add to that bonuses and moral part from manual


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: disf2 on July 12, 2009, 09:51:41 AM
it`s explained in the 1st post. add to that bonuses and moral part from manual
I don't see where it's explained! Am I blind or mad?  *crazy*
Could you please copy-past it? I vow that I readed 1st post three or four times (esp. end of post) and did not find it out.  *xxx*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on July 12, 2009, 18:49:22 PM
you looked for the manual as i said? :D


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: disf2 on July 12, 2009, 21:02:36 PM
you looked for the manual as i said? :D
Do you talk about this one: http://www29.imperiaonline.org/imperia/game_v4a/IOhelp/index.php?page=military ?
I had read it all, two times (esp. bonuses and moral part), but I saw nothing there about fighting between two fighting uhits!
Maybe I'm completely blind? *xxx*

add
In that manual even is no word about fighting units.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on July 12, 2009, 21:42:38 PM
OMG  so, army is divided in companies of the same type of units (1st post of this topic), who interact randomly (same), meaning they fight with each other depending on chance (not as individuals). then  manual here http://forum.imperiaonline.org/int/index.php?topic=26.0 lets say x archers face x spears, but archers have 4x dmg bonus on spears, archers win.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: disf2 on July 12, 2009, 22:37:09 PM
OMG  so, army is divided in companies of the same type of units (1st post of this topic), who interact randomly (same), meaning they fight with each other depending on chance (not as individuals). then  manual here http://forum.imperiaonline.org/int/index.php?topic=26.0 lets say x archers face x spears, but archers have 4x dmg bonus on spears, archers win.

This manual is same with the one link of which I showed.
My question is not "how army is divided by fighting units?" but it's "how does two fighting units fight?".
Is English not your native language? Or you are extremely dump so you don't understand what I'm asking about? *crazy* Anyway thank you for support. Karma +1. *hmm*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on July 13, 2009, 21:28:02 PM
dude are you naturally stupid? read the manual. fight is based on bonuses, x dmg is -x armor, what exactly is so difficult to understand?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on July 13, 2009, 22:21:15 PM
every units have X hitpoints, Y armor value and inflicts Z damages
to make it simple :

unit 1 will inflict damages on unit 2 equal to its damage value (all technological and terrain bonuses included) multiplied by its bonuses/maluses against that type of troop, minus unit 2 armor value (all technological and terrain bonuses included)  .... this net damage value will then be multiplied by unit 1 size (also called company size) ... the overall damage will then be divided by unit 2 basic soldier hit point to determine how many died.

because each melee and ranged attack rounds are in simultaneous, unit 2 will inflict damages on unit 1 pretty much the same way at the same time.


to make it more precise, re-read this post from the beginning (and the manual too), then look more closely to the detailed version of your battle report/battle simulations :)


Have fun,


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on July 14, 2009, 01:09:37 AM
every units have X hitpoints, Y armor value and inflicts Z damages
to make it simple :

unit 1 will inflict damages on unit 2 equal to its damage value (all technological and terrain bonuses included) multiplied by its bonuses/maluses against that type of troop, minus unit 2 armor value (all technological and terrain bonuses included)  .... this net damage value will then be multiplied by unit 1 size (also called company size) ... the overall damage will then be divided by unit 2 basic soldier hit point to determine how many died.

because each melee and ranged attack rounds are in simultaneous, unit 2 will inflict damages on unit 1 pretty much the same way at the same time.


to make it more precise, re-read this post from the beginning (and the manual too), then look more closely to the detailed version of your battle report/battle simulations :)


Have fun,

well im a bit confused now.Substracting armor after all bonus multiplication?That would make armor very effective for cavalry when facing swordsman and archers ,and useless against spearmans? I was always thinking that substraction is made first ,in that case advanced research against advanced research just nullify .Can someone confirm starbucks post?

and what is armor terrain bonus? defender bonus is bonus damage ,particular unit bonus is damage bonus/reduction.Which terrain factor influence armor?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Starbuck on July 14, 2009, 03:35:38 AM
I did a copy/paste about the "armor terrain bonuses" ... my bad if it confused you :)
don't look too deep into it, it was meant to "make it simple" : armor bonuses includes your kingdom's research and alliance's research (I haven't talked of any multiplication there)

the "bonuses" we know exist but can't calculate in details are the ones applied to the "nemesis" unit of each troops :

spearmen for cavalry (x4)
archers for spears (x4)
swordsmen for archers and spears (x2)
cavalry for archers and swordsmen (x2)

and let's not forget the charge and flanking bonuses for the cavalry ;)


have fun,


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: disf2 on July 14, 2009, 08:49:27 AM
every units have X hitpoints, Y armor value and inflicts Z damages
to make it simple :

unit 1 will inflict damages on unit 2 equal to its damage value (all technological and terrain bonuses included) multiplied by its bonuses/maluses against that type of troop, minus unit 2 armor value (all technological and terrain bonuses included)  .... this net damage value will then be multiplied by unit 1 size (also called company size) ... the overall damage will then be divided by unit 2 basic soldier hit point to determine how many died.

because each melee and ranged attack rounds are in simultaneous, unit 2 will inflict damages on unit 1 pretty much the same way at the same time.


to make it more precise, re-read this post from the beginning (and the manual too), then look more closely to the detailed version of your battle report/battle simulations :)


Have fun,
Thank you. I'm glad to see competent man there. :)
But then I've some amplifying questions.
If inflicted damage is less than one soldier's hitpoints, then nobody dies and unit remains fully healthy?
How does work unit type bonuses? Multiplies damage (x4, x2)?

k_mihai
Your behavior is looking as you're stupid churl. And you even decreased my karma! Ooh!  *hmm*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: k_mihai on July 14, 2009, 09:00:53 AM
lol, you can`t read a manual, or a post, flamed others and then cry about it :D put 50 soldiers to fight with 50 soldiers same type, no bonuses to see what happens

@ Starbuck and fragmaster, armor reduces the attack before the bonuses of terrain etc.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: sirmarchel on September 12, 2009, 01:44:07 AM
hi,

im a beginner so maybe it will be a stupid question. is it normal that i loose against an empty lvl3 destroyed castle? there were no enemy units neither in battle nor in siege... and the castle has been not repaired yet. my army has been defeated by ghosts or they has become so disappointed cos there were no enemies that they fought the battle without enemy, killing each other?

help please. i need someone to explain cos im not brave enough to send my army to death without enemies...

thx,
sir


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: chegewara on September 12, 2009, 01:49:29 AM
the fortress is not destroyed but damaged and battle always start with full power of fortress. try to use battle calc to see so you win or not, but remember if morale drop belowe 50 you can always lose cause yours troops can flee from battle field


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: sirmarchel on September 12, 2009, 14:15:57 PM
the fortress is not destroyed but damaged and battle always start with full power of fortress. try to use battle calc to see so you win or not, but remember if morale drop belowe 50 you can always lose cause yours troops can flee from battle field

i see, but there were no enemy soldiers... how is it possible that an empty castle defeat my thousand soldiers? with over 500 swordmen and 300 horsemen? battle calc said i will win easily and that was a lie 8))


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: chegewara on September 12, 2009, 16:28:33 PM
easily? check again morale yours troops. if you cant crash fortress walls and enter to town before yours troops start flee (morale below 50) you should make 5-10 battle simulations


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: blackdeath on September 12, 2009, 17:16:46 PM
i see, but there were no enemy soldiers... how is it possible that an empty castle defeat my thousand soldiers? with over 500 swordmen and 300 horsemen? battle calc said i will win easily and that was a lie 8))
please remember my friend that cavalry are useless against a fortress, they are only effective in the field. another thing is that you probably haven`t considered the possibilty that the enemy has a high level of fortification, that definately has an effect. why not try with 1000 spears and 1000 swords? thats a good mix *ok*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: sirmarchel on September 13, 2009, 00:23:37 AM
please remember my friend that cavalry are useless against a fortress, they are only effective in the field. another thing is that you probably haven`t considered the possibilty that the enemy has a high level of fortification, that definately has an effect. why not try with 1000 spears and 1000 swords? thats a good mix *ok*

i had ram as well. why would i think that an empty castle will defeat an army with siege weapon and over 500 swordmen (which is good for siege if im right)...


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on September 13, 2009, 00:33:24 AM
500 swordsman is very small amount .
For fort 1 good amount is 400 swordsman
for fort 2 800 swordsman
for fort 3 1600 swordsman

for f4 u may need 3200 heavy swordsman

etc...

u really need to use siege calculator ,some rules are not just should i say natural from every point of view


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: blackdeath on September 13, 2009, 09:53:58 AM
good points, he also has to play very close attention to the end moral, lots of people calculate and see the flames and think yeeeaaaaa i will win, but their end moral in below 50, in red. that leaves everything to chance, not a sure win. there are days when i guess the program doesnt work and people win with even 36 moral, but you ahve to be very lucky or feeding your troops brave juice for them not to run........ *hihi* *hihi*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: dasher on September 13, 2009, 11:19:29 AM
I thought it all depended on the:
i) melee as morale is only checked on those rounds
ii) morale diff - if they lose more x morale than you, then you won't flee even if you would otherwise

A handy tip somebody passed on to me regarding sieges - for forts upto and including 5 - you need 10 light siege per fort lvl.

At forts lvl 6+ - the above guide fails due to the fortification lvl and it's affect on the HP.

As a guide to fortification lvls they have - it's handy to send a siege to their smallest province that has a fort and then you can do the math (or use one of the great xls/websites) to work out the lvl they have.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: blackdeath on September 13, 2009, 12:53:09 PM
I thought it all depended on the:
i) melee as morale is only checked on those rounds
ii) morale diff - if they lose more x morale than you, then you won't flee even if you would otherwise

A handy tip somebody passed on to me regarding sieges - for forts upto and including 5 - you need 10 light siege per fort lvl.

At forts lvl 6+ - the above guide fails due to the fortification lvl and it's affect on the HP.

As a guide to fortification lvls they have - it's handy to send a siege to their smallest province that has a fort and then you can do the math (or use one of the great xls/websites) to work out the lvl they have.
man you need to be careful with that, *hmm* *hmm* *hmm* nelee basically doesnt have much to do with it if he is hitting and empty fort, if there were archers inside, range would have a lot to do it it. the archers drop moral, hence the walls and its fortifications drop moral too, thats why to research trebuckets you need level 14 range atttack. good luck with your 10 siege weapons. try hitting a fortress 4 with 10 rams......... empty or not you will be defeated *stop* *Angry*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Dino740 on September 17, 2009, 22:14:38 PM
You had 8 rounds at the fortress siege which cost reduced your morale from 92 to 50............. at the 1st round of the Battle against the garrison, you were reduced to 46 morale and your army fled.............

In the 8 rounds that you were fighting the garrison wall, his archers were picking off your troops with no great losses to himself............ Your archers did kill a few of his Phlanx but not enough for it to make a difference..........

As you are probably aware, the greater the difference in losses per round, the faster the morale falls and the further it falls below 50, the greater the chance of the army fleeing........

So, from what I see there is nothing wrong with that report........... Apart from attacker error !!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Dino740 on September 17, 2009, 22:15:51 PM
I want explain of this battle...http://www34.imperiaonline.org/imperia/game/_addons/dokladi/?path=bitki/2/2009_9_17/889078_905523_12192 ...I don't believe...I have 10 mil.medicine pls send me explain.Realm 2

You may also wish to read all the report................ Especially the bit at the bottom that says "It is forbidden to post reports of battles that have been fought less then 7 days ago." ...............


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on September 17, 2009, 22:16:43 PM
attacking boxed fort 6 with fortification 8 with only 160 treb. u need much more . mili medicine cannot help u much
U can rarely change losing 7 moral per round in siege ,u can focus on decreasing number of rounds  *pardon*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: engkerpo on October 01, 2009, 04:54:41 AM
why is it that my free economics or my golds are in negative..whats wrong with it???


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 23, 2009, 17:28:37 PM
Bonuses:
Fights with an enormous bonus against Cavalry. When fighting a Cavalry it is x4 more cost effective. Against higher class cavalry is not as effective.

does anyone know anything about this? i figured out that bonus dmg is 7.5x - 8 x ,dmg resistance 50%   but i cannot find difference between classes .

And description what cost effective means is not quite accurate ,simple because 50k planaxes cannot defeat 50k paladins on neutral terrain at all.50k spearman cannot defeat 50k light cavalry


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: HRdevil on October 23, 2009, 17:31:35 PM
Because horses has more  HP than spearmen thus the spearmen even with x4 attack cannot kill the horse in 1 blow it must be 2 i suppose + the province in wich your in.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 23, 2009, 17:33:26 PM
i never said in one round  *hahaha* . i know hp/dmg and stuff . Light cav has 400hp ,paladin have 1200hp ,and if u switch units in calc ,u have exactly 3 times difference in number of dead horses in that round .5 spearman kill 1 light cavalry in 1 round


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 24, 2009, 00:57:55 AM
Because horses has more  HP than spearmen thus the spearmen even with x4 attack cannot kill the horse in 1 blow it must be 2 i suppose + the province in wich your in.

u didnt even read what i wrote.dmg bonus is not 4x ,its between 7.5x-8x im not certain.

Plz anyone that knows? no improvisation answers...Cmon people ,forum full with pro players ,impossible that nobody knows the answer...


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: gharn on October 24, 2009, 23:57:32 PM
well I don't deal with some statistical numbers as HP ratio or sth like that but I know sth.

the research lvls are so effective on the battle moral..phalanx is a good instrument but if you use calculator and run it for several times you will be surprised to see that the moral bonus change is so different if you have too many phalanx against paladin
if that too many phalanx has succesfull damage esp in their first and second rounds the battle goes in favor of them..but if they fail at that rounds they may be defeated because of the moral...

I usually run the battle calculator minimum 10 times and attack if and only if I see that I will win % 100 of it...I don't risk the battle even if I see that I win with 49 moral...

as all that you know ..moral going under 50 has a chance of loosing the battle and this loosing chance increases with the decrease of moral 49 to lower numbers.

this is all the same between light ..heavy..and elite units...

I see that phalanx is deadly against cavalry when you use it in defence rather than offense..


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tinodunks on October 25, 2009, 00:05:56 AM
just outnumber the paladins  by 3 to 1  with phalanxes   *pardon*  simple.........   also consider that the swordmen  will massacre some of those phalanxes...........   so you should  think abt how much phalanxes  you would have after that  to fight against the  paladins  *rose*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 00:16:07 AM
moral drop is only body count rate from both sides .carefull mix can make that u lose 1 moral in almost every round ,making wins with 60 start moral easily.Good in early game v4 wars.

ok ,im interested in numbers . any opinions welcome. I measured some data in old calculator with special stat levels ,and found out order and effect of armor/melee for any unit. For example armor helps paladins much more than melee ,because base armor of every unit is 0 ,and phalanx will deal 30 dmg x 8 = 240 dmg ,but if u have higher armor than opponents melee ,they deal 29 x 8 = 232 dmg .While having attack increased gives (120+1)/2 dmg ,which hardly helps,even against units where they have bonuses. So attack  helps on smaller units ,armor helps on both cheaper and expensive units .Armor is not detectable .Having (armor-enemy attack )= +30 gives ur paladins immunity to enemy phalanx AND ur phalanx immunity to elite archers.(on unselected terrain) .terrain acts like multiplier on (attack skill adj+dmg) so it pierces those +30 armor.Also flank pierce .Unit bonuses dont pierce (applied after substraction).

so i would like to hear some advanced thinking not some stuff that i figured out first day on IO


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Merrydown on October 25, 2009, 16:46:05 PM
Bonuses:
Fights with an enormous bonus against Cavalry. When fighting a Cavalry it is x4 more cost effective. Against higher class cavalry is not as effective.

does anyone know anything about this? i figured out that bonus dmg is 7.5x - 8 x ,dmg resistance 50%   but i cannot find difference between classes .

And description what cost effective means is not quite accurate ,simple because 50k planaxes cannot defeat 50k paladins on neutral terrain at all.50k spearman cannot defeat 50k light cavalry

50k Phalanx COST a gold equivalent of (((75 x 50,000)/2) + ((30 x 50,000) x 2.5))/1000 = 5,625
50k Paladins COST a gold equivalent of (((300 x 50,000)/2) + ((120 x 50,000 x 2.5))/1000 = 22,500

22,500 is four times 5,625 so you expect your Phalanx to win.

What you forget is not all 50k Paladins fight in the centre, 10k will fight on the flanks where the effectiveness of the Phalanx is halved. In order to defeat 50K Paladins using just Phalanx you need an army that is a quarter the cost of the Paladins charging down the middle PLUS half the cost of the Paladins on the Flank.

So, the 40k Paladins in the middle can be matched with 40k Phalanx, but the 10k Paladins on the flank need to be matched by 20k Phalanx. Therefore, you need 60k Phalanx in order to win, all other things being equal.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 17:05:55 PM
thats not the point . planaxes should defeat 4 times more expensive army of paladins according to this sentence from manual  witout great loss

 "By cost effective we mean that with cavalry, for example,  you can annihilate 4 times more expensive army of archers without great loss.."

They cannot defeat them at all.i know how it goes ,which army can defeat which ,i know it very well, my point is that "cost effective" is not well explained and defined.

flank doesnt halve effectivness of oposit company ,they have 50% bonus dmg .

anyway stronger charge of higher class cavalry is answer to original question .


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 17:11:35 PM
speaking about that 1000 light cavalry loses against 16000 archers too ,making everything wrong  *xxx*.
16k archers are 4 times more expensive than 1k cavalry


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 17:20:12 PM
not only that "real" mechanic is hidden behind calculator ,i understand if owners want to protect implementation of "unbelivable realistic battles" ,but was it nessesary to give false information to make total mislead ? 


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Merrydown on October 25, 2009, 17:33:58 PM
speaking about that 1000 light cavalry loses against 16000 archers too ,making everything wrong  *xxx*.
16k archers are 4 times more expensive than 1k cavalry

16k archers is gold equivalent (((22.5 x 16,000)/2) + ((9 x 16,000) x 2.5))/1000 = 540
1k light cavalry is gold equivalent (((90 x 1000)/2) + ((36 x 1000) x 2.5))/1000 = 135

540 is four time 135 so you expect your light cavalry to win.

What you forget is the archers get a bonus attack at round 2 in which the light cavalry cannot retaliate. The archers wipe out about 200 of the light cavalry in that first salvo, hence by the time the battle is engaged, there are only 800 light cavalry fighting against the 16k archers. The cost ratio is now five times different, so the archers win, all other things being equal.


And as for '50% damage bonus' versus 'effectiveness being halved' I can't be bothered with the numbers right now, but it's simpler to think of the effectiveness of spears as being halved, rather than cavs doing half as much more damage.  *suicide*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 17:38:19 PM
and now we all should forget all special bonuses of all units??cavalry has flank and charge ,archers have free shot .i just say that manual is wrong .

besides that i measured that archers have only 5x dmg bonus to spearman ,unlike 8x that spearman have to cavalry ,probably to nerf free shot . So they calculated it in ,dont worry. why do u defend manual statements if they are wrong?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Merrydown on October 25, 2009, 17:44:13 PM
Elite Archers get TWO free shots against the attackers before the battle is engaged  :o


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 25, 2009, 17:45:14 PM
yes but paladins have stronger charge.i tested 1k paladins against 16k elite archers,paladins still lose


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Merrydown on October 25, 2009, 18:18:52 PM
You realise none of these facts really matter? Any attacking army that isn't used purely for raiding should consist of all four types of soldier. If you only send 1 or 2 or even 3 of the different types of unit into battle you stand the risk of losing, even against vastly inferior opposition. I've decimated armies with just Phalanx before because the attacker didn't bother sending Elite Archers... kept all my Guardians and Paladins out of the fight so I could follow my enemy's troops back to destroy his army even further.

If you mess around with the calculator long enough you'll find some very interesting situations that defy anything the manual says. Did you know for example, under certain conditions it is possible to stack the odds in your favour so that an attacking army will flee due to low morale AFTER starting the battle against the garrison, hence they lose an additional 50% of their troops? And by stack the odds, I mean eight times out of ten this is the only outcome... one out of ten the attacker flees while bashing the fortress and loses the usual 20% extra troops... the other one time the attacker actually wins...

Don't get too caught up in 1k light cavs beat x amount of archers and 10k phalanx will slaughter x amount of Paladins. It doesn't work like that because most battles involve more than one type of troop and they don't always go head to head with their nemesis. Swords don't march off across the battlefield to fight the archers and spears, ignoring the cavalry, the cavalry don't just seek out archers or swords and the archers don't only use their arrows on the enemy spears. It's not as clean cut as that. In a battle involving a mix of troops on each side, some of your archers might find themselves up against the enemy cavs, while some of the enemy spears decide they fancy their chances against your swords.

Back at the start of this thread Isolde tried explaining the Mechanics of the Battle. Basically, you want to make sure each of your 'units' is crammed with as many troops as possible and you have more 'units' than your enemy. That's something you learn as you go, but using the 'old' battle calculator you download is a good place to start, the ingame one is useful to see if you win or lose, but not for much else.....

And if all else fails, just make sure your army outnumbers the enemy 4 to 1 in terms of actual size and it's packed with cavalry. Seems to work for everyone else  ;)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: chegewara on October 26, 2009, 06:35:36 AM
i dont know exactly game mechanics and dont want to understand it, but someone asked me for that and ive been made few tests in battle calc.

this what ive get (in plains without any war parameters):
1000 spearmens kill about 180 light cavalry
1000 light cavalry units kill about 200 spearmens

180 light cavalry is 72k health points, but 1000 spearmens have only 10k hit points
200 spearmens is 20k health points, but 1000 light cavalry have 44k hit points

for checking calculations ive been made one more battle simulation, 1000 spearmens vs 1000 spearmeans. result:
both sides lost 91 spearmens. this is only 9,1 k health points

conclusion: 
spearmens dealt about 8x more damage against light cavalry than against spearmens and have about 100% bonus to defence against light cavalry. for me spearmens have over 16x more efficiency against light cavalry than against spearmens


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 26, 2009, 06:51:59 AM
its good , i had some similar conclusions .

What i can add to make all better.

Enter 1 milion spearman against 1 milion spearman to avoid effect of surviving but damaged units : result exactly 10% dead in first round .

Attacker
Soldiers = 900010,Units Lost = 99990,Morale = 92,Number of companies = 100
 
Spearman = 900010  (Before the round = 1000000)  (Units lost =99990)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defender
Soldiers = 900010,Units Lost = 99990,Morale = 92,Number of companies = 100
 
Spearman = 900010  (Before the round = 1000000)  (Units lost =99990)

100hp ,10 dmg ,it makes sense

Counter units kill eachother faster (~20% of enemy stack ) - example with spearman and lightcavalry.

spearman to spearman do normal dmg (10 dmg ) and 8x bonus to cavalry (80 dmg ) ,and have 50% resistance to cavalry attack.

charge and flank and plains  makes harder to see clearly 8x . in fight 1m spearman against 1m light cavalry (on unselected terrain of old calc ,restart calc to have that neutral terrain) ,800k cavalry is on center and will be confronted by 800k spearman ,while flank 200k fights with other 200k .damage to center cavalry is 160k dead cavalry (=20% of center number of units ) .on other hand 236k spearman dies. 80% of cavalry had 10% bonus(charge),20% had 50% bonus (flank) giving average bonus 18% .200k *1.18 = 236k.So base number of kills was 200k spearman .center group killed 160k*1.1 = 176k ,and flank kills 40k*1.5=60k spearman.176+60=236k


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 26, 2009, 07:04:09 AM
summing all up in direct confrontation
spearman has 100hp and 80 dmg
cavalry has 400hp and 20 dmg (halved)

they damage 20% of each other in one hit .


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 26, 2009, 07:07:34 AM
Attacker
Soldiers = 764024,Units Lost = 235976,Morale = 92,Number of companies = 100
 
Spearman = 764024  (Before the round = 1000000)  (Units lost =235976)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defender
Soldiers = 800460,Units Lost = 199541,Morale = 92,Number of companies = 100
 
Spearman = 0  (Before the round = 1)  (Units lost =1)
Light cavalry = 640460  (Before the round = 800000)  (Units lost =159540)
F Light cavalry = 160000  (Before the round = 200000)  (Units lost =40000)
 
those are 236k ,160k and 40k mentioned.So flank cavalry is not more durable ,they only hit harder


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: fragmaster on October 26, 2009, 07:09:33 AM
like anybody will ever need this  *pardon*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tiger on October 26, 2009, 22:02:29 PM
Just to add something to chegewara post.
yes, its 16x because spears have 4x against cav and cav have 4x weakness so thats 16x.
same for example swords and archers. they are 4x. 2x bonus of swords and 2x weakness from archers.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: blackdeath on October 28, 2009, 17:14:48 PM
like anybody will ever need this  *pardon*
its very important man *rose* thats why i always have high infantry(spears and swords) to increase the size of my flank attack, hence hitting the enemy harder each round, destroying their moral and winning faster, also saves a lot of troops *Angry*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: HRdevil on October 29, 2009, 06:10:59 AM
its very important man *rose* thats why i always have high infantry(spears and swords) to increase the size of my flank attack, hence hitting the enemy harder each round, destroying their moral and winning faster, also saves a lot of troops *Angry*

He ment it in a way of sarcasm.  *rose*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: HRdevil on October 29, 2009, 17:39:05 PM
isolde u suck big time fuck u'r self bitch

 *hahaha* Get real and accept you got beat up.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: HRdevil on March 22, 2010, 19:50:33 PM
I'm a spammer



Wrong topic pal.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on April 18, 2010, 23:32:04 PM
witch is better in the field army to fight or retreat?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tinodunks on April 19, 2010, 07:31:19 AM
witch is better in the field army to fight or retreat?

retreat  is 100% better   *rose*  if you don't believe me ask KJ  *freak*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Moonshadow on April 19, 2010, 07:50:39 AM
witch is better in the field army to fight or retreat?

If you are too cool then you can put your army on fight mode...  *freak*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on April 25, 2010, 23:43:27 PM
where is better to attack? at the fortress or at the field??


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: gabzpiano on April 26, 2010, 19:37:09 PM
How the battle calculator works is still a big mystery in IO. Very few people can explain well the mechanics of a battle which depends a lot on something called density of the fighting parties. What does that mean: if you attack someone with 2000 soldiers - they are distributed into several "parties', "teams" or "units", call it whatever you want. But how exactly and how many soldiers are in each unit ? The battle depends much on that but few people know it.

That is why, for the enlightenment of the international community I am translation this post from Skeletan, one of the admittedly best ever players in Imperia Online. You can find the original here:

http://www4.imperiaonline.org/forums/bg/index.php?topic=15435.0

The density of the fighting units is determined ONLY in the beginning of each battle and the following principles are followed. :
1. Minimal number of units is 50;
2. The unit consists of the same type soldiers
3. The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100.
4. Not all units have the same number of soldiers. The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.

Example 1:

spears = 441;
archers= 58

Determination of the total number of soldiers = 499
division by 1 = 499>100  therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 1 soldier
division by 2 = 249.5 > 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 2 soldiers
................
........................
division by 5 = 99.8 < 100 therefore the size of the unit is 5 soldiers

Formation of the fighting units:
441:5 = 88.2 (88 fighting units with 5 spears each and 0.2*5 = 1 spear in the last unit of spears, so altogether 89 units of spears)
58:5 = 11,6 (11 fighting units with 5 archers each and 0.6*5 = 3 archers in the last unit of archers, so altogether 12 units of archers)

Total number of fighting units: 89+ 12= 101


Example 2:

spears = 441;
archers= 59;

Determination of the total number of soldiers = 500
division by 1 = 500>100  therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 1 soldier
division by 2 = 250.0 > 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 2 soldiers
................
........................
division by 5 = 100 = 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is greater than 5 soldiers
division by 6 = 83.3 < 100 therefore size of the fighting unit is 6 soldiers

Formation of the fighting units:
441:6 = 73.5 (73 fighting units with 6 spears each and 0.5*6 = 3 spears in the last unit of spears, so altogether 74 units of spears)
59:6 = 9.83 (9 fighting units with 6 archers each and 0.83*6 = 5 archers in the last unit of archers, so altogether 10 units of archers)

Total number of fighting units: 74+ 10= 84

Every unit receives a consecutive number. Based on a random principle, each fighting unit meets in battle an enemy fighting unit during each round. When the number of units is not the same as the enemy has, one unit can participate several times in battle (from the army which has less fighting units). The purpose is, that all units participate at least once. If the army of player 1 has remainining only 10 units, and the army of player 2 has 50 units, then in the first part of the round, those 10 units will be fighting against 10 randomly chosen enemy units, after that the same 10 units will be put against another 10 of the enemy army units. In this way, those 10 units will take part 5 times each in the battle.

If the fighting units of player 1 are 10 and the units of player 2 are 11, then based on a random principle, 10 units are fighting with 10 units of the enemy troops. After that once again 1 unit is randomly chose, which is to fight the last 1 unit of the enemy, which has not yet taken part in the battle.

If player 1 has 10 fighting units, and player 2 has 12, then based on a random principle those 10 units fight with 10 of the enemy units. After that, 1 more unit from the 10 is randomly chosen to fight the 11th unit of the enemy. After that again, once more, 1 unit is randomly chosen to fight the 12th unit of the enemy, but so that it is not the same unit who has already been in battle for the second time against the 11th enemy unit.
Because the different types of soldiers have different bonuses, the random principle of units meeting each other in battle lead to different end results in battle although the beginning army is the same...

i have a fundamental question that im hoping someone can answer, about the 1st post...
i just read this whole thread, seems u guys went a tad(not being sarcastic :P ) off topic.. and seems this question was ignored

i get 1 way to take advantage of this information... its to make sure ur units/groups dont end up with ur last unit being really weak.. so u just gotta make sure that the amount of each unit type divides equally by the number that u see it will be divided by...
but i believe there is another very important question about this, som1 mentioned it already, and then they said, the best is to make sure you have more units and more soldiers in the units.. haha basically have a bigger army, but that obviously cant be done 50% of the time on average :P (not talking about NI)... so the question is:
in a situation of around the same amount of soldiers, is there a difference in which is more 'cost effective'?
for example:
499 swordsmen vs 500 swordsmen
so it should be 99 units of 5 swordsmen and one of 4 swordsmen vs 83 units of 6 swordsmen and one unit of 2 swordsmen
question is, does this info in any way change the effectiveness of the army? and if it does, then how?
i'm sorry, i prefer to see if anyone knows facts about this(there has to be som1, where is the creator behind all this in the 1st place?) then to just run it though the calc so many times


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: gabzpiano on April 26, 2010, 22:57:10 PM
okay, i just simulated lots of battles, and i cant see that it makes any difference... another interesting thing i just thought of, if my calculations are correct, u cant have all of your units full after having 9900 soldiers in ur army... in other words, 9900 is the perfect sized army (unit wise)
now i have 2 more questions :P :
1) is anyone reading this?! :P
2) can someone even just acknowledge that they have read my post? :P

now a real question:
is this information even still valid?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Moonshadow on April 26, 2010, 23:08:30 PM
okay, i just simulated lots of battles, and i cant see that it makes any difference... another interesting thing i just thought of, if my calculations are correct, u cant have all of your units full after having 9900 soldiers in ur army... in other words, 9900 is the perfect sized army (unit wise)
now i have 2 more questions :P :
1) is anyone reading this?! :P
2) can someone even just acknowledge that they have read my post? :P

now a real question:
is this information even still valid?

I saw it but all that calculation is beyond me  *xxx*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: gabzpiano on April 26, 2010, 23:22:49 PM
 *bravo* *bravo* *bravo* at least ur honest :P and at least u replied  *bravo*


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on April 28, 2010, 10:09:00 AM
where is better to attack? at the field or at the fortress?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Moonshadow on April 28, 2010, 16:08:01 PM
where is better to attack? at the field or at the fortress?

field obviously its less risky but the chances of having the enemy on fight mode is also low


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on May 07, 2010, 21:39:11 PM
so where is better?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Moonshadow on May 15, 2010, 12:15:08 PM
The field


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on June 09, 2010, 11:46:17 AM
how can i win a medal ?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Protein78 on June 09, 2010, 11:55:57 AM
You need to win a battle worth higher than any other battle in net points which basically means it has to be the biggest battle of the day. You will also find such battles listed on the main page (end of the page) titled "Battles of the day".


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on June 09, 2010, 23:18:19 PM
and why i lose when i have 3500 army and he has 1000 :@:@:@ and i lose


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Moonshadow on June 10, 2010, 09:48:38 AM
the numbers dont determine the outcome of a battle. You must also consider:

1. composition of ur army and that of opponent.
2. terrain of battle
3. technology and alliance techs of urs and opponents.
4. level of fortress and fortification
5. morale


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: asdfghhhhhhhh on August 10, 2010, 18:13:53 PM
omg why i can only register at world 9 ??? i like in other world


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: tiger on August 10, 2010, 18:21:23 PM
omg why i can only register at world 9 ??? i like in other world
This is topic about mechanics of battles, not for how to register in world.
You can register in r9 because its realm that started the last of all realms.
http://www18.imperiaonline.org/imperia/game_v4a/register.php?realm=71
You can register to all V4a realms using that link and changing number 71 to number of realm you wish to register.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Gorkhali on October 14, 2010, 18:59:08 PM
As for being secure in my own fortress 3 [fort 3] with 400 Archers at level 7, it seems if someone brings a battering ram and 1500 swords, 200 archers (0 melee, 0 range, 0 armor) I am cooked according to the calculator.  So much for my armor, tactics and range stats.

Imagine an unwashed army of 1500 sword-wielding peasants takes your fortress, which you have built-up, fortified, and populated with improved troops. 

So is the calculator broken?  Am I safe?  If not - how can I ever be?


Also, another one of those answers without statistical involvement: BEFORE I am attacked, do I get a note saying hostile troops are on their way?  Or is it a less romantic and less honorable discovery I make by looking at the village picture to see a mob around my fortress hurling more than insults? Will I get an email saying my fortress is under attack?  Or do I just suddenly see destruction and my numbers drop?

Will I even know I have been attacked or should I assume every computer bug is an attack: more of something that should not be there is a victory and less is a loss?

OK.  I am a total noob.  But these are questions people new to the game would want to know and should be told.  Veterans and staffers everywhere be bored now.
[NO MAN YOUR QUES isnt boaring infact its very interseting and funny....but you asked the very genuine ques..which every one including me would like to knw..ha ha ha]


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: darkpoodle on October 21, 2010, 21:35:10 PM
IT IS FORBIDDEN TO POST REPORTS OF BATTLES THAT HAVE BEEN FOUGHT LESS THEN 7 DAYS AGO. THIS IS BAD FOR THE GAME .... AT THE END OF THE BATTLE WITH THE GARNISONE, I HAD 43 MORALE .... MORE THAN 160 000 ELITES .... DEFENDER HAD 4000 ELITE ARCHERS AND HIS FORT IS ONLY 20 000 HIT POINTS FROM DESTRYCTION .... I NEEDED JUST ONE MORE ROUND TO KILL THE BITCH .... THIS IS NOT GOOD AT ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: samyoboy on October 22, 2010, 03:39:20 AM
Ok if seige/garrison battle goes under 50 morale is chance army with flee and you lose. Game has been this way over 5 years. *pardon* You need 50+ morale to win without chance of loss. You posted a report of a pillage. reports must be 7 days old before them. Making risky attacks that go under 50 morale is great fun and creates suspense. It's 1 of the best features of this game. :)


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Warwiller on February 27, 2012, 18:35:28 PM
The density of the fighting units is determined ONLY in the beginning of each battle and the following principles are followed. :
1. Minimal number of units is 50;
2. The unit consists of the same type soldiers
3. The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100.
4. Not all units have the same number of soldiers. The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.

(1) what does this mean?  *gamer*
 
 1. what is the "density of the fighting units"?
     A) how dense they are?  *hmm*

 2. additionally, what do you mean by the "the beginning"?
     A) do you mean the beginning of the battle process?
         a) if so: what is the significance of the "density of the fighting units" being determined ONLY at "the beginning" ?
         b) if not: when?

 3. does "the following principles are followed" mean, in a battle, the following rules are applied?
    (i ask this because i'am not sure of the meaning first phrase of the sentence)
 
 4. i initially interpreted "Minimal number of units is 50", as, "the minimum number of units you can have in a battle is 50."
      however,
      "The unit consists of the same type soldiers" implies that a unit is not a unit (e.g. 1 spearman, 1 swordsman, etc.)
      therefore,
      what is a unit?
      (for those of you who are interested: "The unit consists of the same type soldiers" does not mean "a unit is a class of soldier" (e.g. spearmen,       
       swordsmen, etc.) since it fails to specify. this is especially true if the definition is listed under "battle principles followed during combat".)
 
 5. "The size of the units is determined as the total number of soldiers is consecutively divided by each following member from order of the real
    numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100."  *locker*
     A) what is the subject: "The size of the units"?
     (note: if you have dedicated yourself to answering this, in any manner of speaking, just provide a single definition for each unknown term)
     B) what is the significance of "as", in this sentence?
      a) does it mean "because"?
      b) does it mean "like"?
     C) what is the mathematical equivalent of "consecutively divided"?
     D) what is the english equivalent of "each following member from order of the real numbers until a result is reached which is less of 100"?
      a) does it represent a number?
     E) how does this relate to "rules applied in the battle process" (if that is a correct translation)?
     (note: if any indefinitely specified people feel inclined to respond with something like, "read the manual": i have, and i can't say that tells me
      anything new. i could say the short and complete manuals don't provide information (they do). however, there are notable shortcomings when it
      comes to structure, organization, clarity and value, when you're in a situation where you're in the mood to convert one of the various coded         
      messages floating around the imperiaonline-related section of the internet, into plain text)
 
 6. if i have the meaning of "units" defined, is there any other obscure term in the following sentence: "Not all units have the same number of soldiers.
     The last unit with same type of soldiers can be incomplete.", such as "incomplete", in this specific context, that would allow full access to this
     statement?
 7.   *PAINT*

(2) its interesting watching people enter various different and interesting stages of involvement.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: _rico on February 27, 2012, 23:42:38 PM
let me explain it to you on example:

Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces). A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece.

You have 10 000 spears and 10 000 archers (light) so your army will be divided:
50 x 200 spears
50 x 200 archers

If you lose in first round 50 spears in each piece of army in the next round you will have:
50 x 150 units
50 x 200 units

When one unit disappears, your army is not divided again. One of your piece (random one) is fighting twice.

What else need explanations?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Warwiller on February 28, 2012, 23:50:03 PM
let me explain it to you on example:

Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces). A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece.

You have 10 000 spears and 10 000 archers (light) so your army will be divided:
50 x 200 spears
50 x 200 archers

If you lose in first round 50 spears in each piece of army in the next round you will have:
50 x 150 units
50 x 200 units

When one unit disappears, your army is not divided again. One of your piece (random one) is fighting twice.

What else need explanations?

if this is designed to help me achieve a general understanding in order to answer the questions i posed, then thanks. it would have been more simple, though, just to replace each question with a definite answer.  *YES*

however, it does bring up many more questions.

"Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces)."
does this mean the total number of units (soldiers) in your army is divided into 100 "factions" before the battle process?

what if your army is not divisible by 100? if you have 7328 soldiers, would the remaining soldiers be placed in a "group" or "piece" less in number than the other "pieces"?

are these "groups" or "factions" the "units" referred to previously?
 
"A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...)
When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece."

how do the rounds interact with this?
round 1 is the archer round. does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect? specifically, on who they target, for example? more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?
(could you explain, or refer to a website that explains, with a detailed description, how the rounds work? i dont understand, for example, what it is exactly the archers do after round 1; it says they "fight like everyone else")

also, if 50 light spearmen meet 50 light spearmen, do they always cancel each other out? is this true for other units?

if a "piece" wins another "piece", what determines the amount of soldiers the winning "piece" has at the end? does the winning "piece" continue to meet random other "pieces"?

additionally, how does the formation work with this?

are the light horsemen on the flanks, as well as "divided" into "pieces"? how do they attack? or is it that each random "piece" each "piece" of horsemen meet, the horsemen are given some sort of bonus for being on the flank?

i can only evaluate that portion of your response right now. :D i hope you can answer each question separately and clearly. its probably difficult,  since the answers are probably interrelated. why is it, though, there is no description of this aspect of battle mechanics in some official manual, or information site?


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: _rico on February 29, 2012, 20:59:03 PM
1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided.
2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal.
3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others.
4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again.
5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group.
6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round.
7. it is clearly described on the first page of the topic we are talking in.

Try to find the old battle calculator, from the beginnings. It shows many more informations including number of groups. I do not have it anymore.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Warwiller on March 02, 2012, 01:55:57 AM
1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided.
2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal.
3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others.
4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again.
5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group.
6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round.
7. it is clearly described on the first page of the topic we are talking in.

Try to find the old battle calculator, from the beginnings. It shows many more informations including number of groups. I do not have it anymore.


1.
R: " "Before the battle begins, the system divide your army into pieces (~100 pieces)." "
W: "does this mean the total number of units (soldiers) in your army is divided into 100 "factions" before the battle process?"
R: "1. Yes, The total number of your army is being divided."

by 100? okay, thats nice.

2.
W: "what if your army is not divisible by 100? if you have 7328 soldiers, would the remaining soldiers be placed in a "group" or "piece" less in number than the other "pieces"?"
R: "2. If your army can not be divided by 100 ( it is maximum number of groups), your groups will not be equal."

okay, got it.
to answer the question specifically, though, could you tell me whether one remaining group would contain less soldiers than the rest, or all the groups would contain differing but close numbers of soldiers? if it its the former say, yes. if its the latter say, no. if its neither, kindly explain.


3.
W: "are these "groups" or "factions" the "units" referred to previously?"   *pardon*

4.
R: "A peace contains one type of units (light spears, heavy spears etc...) When it is done, the battle begins. (Round one, two, three...). Your army fight. Your piece of army against random enemy's piece."
W:  "how do the rounds interact with this? round 1 is the archer round. does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect? specifically, on who they target, for example? more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?
(could you explain, or refer to a website that explains, with a detailed description, how the rounds work? i dont understand, for example, what it is exactly the archers do after round 1; it says they "fight like everyone else")"
R: "3. No, archers are not separate type on soldiers, they are under same rul;es as all the others."

 *offtopic*

which is irrelevant to the following questions:

A. "how do the rounds interact with this?" (where, this, is your army being divided to 100 groups and encountering random enemy groups)
B. "does the archers being divided into smaller groups have any effect?"
  a. "specifically, on who they target, for example?"
  b. "more generally, on the overall damage to the enemy?"

the only section of my post i can vaguely relate it to is where i say that i have only a very general idea of the how rounds effect fighting; for example, how the archers function after round 1, and the exact meaning of "fight like everyone else". in which case, i have no idea what the "same rul;es as all the others" would be, and i wouldn't exactly be helping myself if i thought archers were a separate type of soldiers, in the sense you conveyed. :D

my next question was:


5.
W: "if 50 light spearmen meet 50 light spearmen, do they always cancel each other out? is this true for other units?"

to which the corresponding answer, i linked it to, was:

R: "4. Interaction between groups. Computer randomly create fighting pairs. If one side has less groups than the other player. His groups will fight two, three... times. Groups are being choosen randomly to be fighting again."

if this is the question you intended to answer with your 4th answer, then:

it fails to constitute an answer to the question, but it does provide additional information, since:

it doesn't state the definite result of an encounter between two opposing groups of 50 light spearmen, or whether the result is true for other units. or, if the result is not definite, the factors coming into play in that situation.

but, it does indicate that the less the number of soldiers, the more frequently the soldier groups are required to fight against opposing groups, if i interpreted it right.

in any case, thank you. :D


6.

W: "if a "piece" wins another "piece", what determines the amount of soldiers the winning "piece" has at the end? does the winning "piece" continue to meet random other "pieces"?"

R: "5. Attack. 50 light spears has 50*10 attack so they will kill soldiers whose HP is equal to 500hp. If they are not able to kill last soldier, his hitpoints are lowered in the next round and he "fights" as the first person in his group."

if this is not the intended to answer to my 6th question, then i apologize. just tell me which ones which.

if it is, then:

according to the provided information on light spearmen, they have an attack of 10 + (level of melee attack researched), which is different from 5 x 10.

it does little to answer the general question, since it focuses specifically on spearmen with "5 x 10 attack" being able to kill soldiers with 500 hp.
which brings up other questions:
if i assume you're talking about a group of light spearmen with "5 x 10 attack", meeting a group of enemy soldiers all with 500 hp, what would occur, exactly, if the spearmen had 500 hp also, and the opposing soldiers had "5 x 10 attack"? would they cancel each other out?

if it is complicated to answer the original, 6th question, due to the various possible situations, i don't mind if you give a brief explanation of these situations and provide an example. also, as close as possible to a yes or no answer to the second part of the 6th question.


7.
W: "additionally, how does the formation work with this?

are the light horsemen on the flanks, as well as "divided" into "pieces"? how do they attack? or is it that each random "piece" each "piece" of horsemen meet, the horsemen are given some sort of bonus for being on the flank?"

and

R: "6. Groups to fight are randomly taken before each round. " do not seem to match, so i'll respond to your 6th answer based on my 4th question:

W: "how do the rounds interact with this?" (where, this = division process)

in order to truly understand your 6th answer, we need to achieve at least a basic understanding of "each round".

of which there is none.

however, your 6th answer describes that before each round, the soldiers undergo the "division process", according to one of my possible interpretations of "Groups to fight are randomly taken" "before each round" .

does this imply that, before round 1, for example, the soldiers are divided into 100 segments, each containing only a single class of soldier, and the groups or segments randomly encounter opposing groups and segments. then round 1 begins?

if so, which it probably isn't, unless the person responsible for it being like that is a nut (which is possible): how many encounters between each group does it take for round 1 to begin?


additional question:

W: "why is it, though, there is no description of this aspect of battle mechanics in some official manual, or information site?"

R: "7. it is clearly ( *hahaha*) described on the first page of the topic we are talking in."

which isn't an official manual, or official information site, unless i'am wrong (which is possible). by official information site, i mean a site dedicated to explaining to explaining various aspects of the game in detail. not a forum, where people post on generally any topic in the game with varying degrees of seriousness.

  *WRITE*

at any rate, if the chain of responses are going to keep angling of into a various directions, i can live without knowing what exactly the original poster was trying to say  :D


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: _rico on March 02, 2012, 19:25:30 PM
The first post about the mechanic of the battle was postd y regular user but it has been approved by the programmers.

I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own.
 I can explain the mechanic again, step by step. It is so simple that I can not understand that you ask so many questions abut it.

Step 1
Army is being divided into groups
   Groups: -are made of one type of units
              -there is no more than 100 groups
              -the system makes try to create more less same number of units for both players
              -the division is made on the beginning of the battle, once
Step 2
   Battle -each round, the system create pairs
            -if there is difference in number of groups (I have 76, you have 70),  some of them will fight once again (randomly chosen 6 of your groups fight witch my 6 groups)
            -archers are not privileged group, they are in the lottery as any other group
            -there is no formations, try to think like computer. It adds bonus to the attack, that is how it works (example bellow)
   Hitpoints: -total attack is calculated this way: number of soldiers x  (base attack + mele/range attack + alliance bonus) x terrain bonus x "unit interaction bonus*"
                 -this total attack is being given to opposite group. If my group has 1000 attack, it will be subtracted from your group. How? System will kill 1,2,3,4,5... soldier until the total attack is reached.

*unit interaction bonus: it is the multiplier when archers fight with spears (archer has 4x bonus) etc.

             


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: Warwiller on March 05, 2012, 16:09:24 PM
The first post about the mechanic of the battle was postd y regular user but it has been approved by the programmers.

I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own.
 I can explain the mechanic again, step by step. It is so simple that I can not understand that you ask so many questions abut it.

Step 1
Army is being divided into groups
   Groups: -are made of one type of units
              -there is no more than 100 groups
              -the system makes try to create more less same number of units for both players
              -the division is made on the beginning of the battle, once
Step 2
   Battle -each round, the system create pairs
            -if there is difference in number of groups (I have 76, you have 70),  some of them will fight once again (randomly chosen 6 of your groups fight witch my 6 groups)
            -archers are not privileged group, they are in the lottery as any other group
            -there is no formations, try to think like computer. It adds bonus to the attack, that is how it works (example bellow)
   Hitpoints: -total attack is calculated this way: number of soldiers x  (base attack + mele/range attack + alliance bonus) x terrain bonus x "unit interaction bonus*"
                 -this total attack is being given to opposite group. If my group has 1000 attack, it will be subtracted from your group. How? System will kill 1,2,3,4,5... soldier until the total attack is reached.

*unit interaction bonus: it is the multiplier when archers fight with spears (archer has 4x bonus) etc.             

"it has been approved by the programmers."

which is subtly different from, say, an official site allowing access to basic information regarding a certain aspect of the game. in other words, the question still figures.




"I didn't answer your question like this: guestion-answer. I numbered it because they tells different things, mach them to your questions by your own."

naturally. in which case, we have a broad set of interrelated topics overlapping one another due to a series of misunderstandings that stem from two different ways of looking at things:

A. in order to understand something, you often need to apply careful questioning. in this case, in the form of several fundamental questions, each addressing a specific area within the topic.
B. a set of answers, numbered based on general elements associated with the questions, is sufficient to answer something.

this is what allows a simple idea to appear confusing, and sometimes inconsistent. in other words, to avoid confusion, and to prevent an idea that appears "so simple" to seem inconsistent, its advisable to answer separate questions specifically and definitely.




since responding to obscure answers with further question results in nothing interesting, i can start by identifying certain basic elements:

the baseline principle in this topic is:

1. before battle, the total number of units in an army are divided by 100, where each division contains 1 unit class.

is this true?

2. divisions from opposing armies are paired randomly (to fight each other).

is this true?

3. A. spearman > cavalry, B. swordsmen > archers/spearmen, C. cavalry > swordsmen, D. archers > spearmen

is this true?

-if both 2. and 3. are correct, that allows for an element of luck to come into play.

-if i thought archers were a "privileged" class, i wouldnt be curious about their fighting techniques the way i was. if iam going to have to explain this every post, then its going to take a long time for you to answer the original question directly.




a separate set of questions related to this, is:

1. is there such a thing as army formation?

2. is there such a thing as rounds?

 *REDX*

thanks in advance, sorry for the mass confusion.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: _rico on March 05, 2012, 17:41:02 PM
1-3 TRUE

Yes, there is some kind of lottery in the battle.

There is no such thing like formation BUT <20% of your army (spears, swords, cavalry WITHOUT archers) is a flank. At the flank there is cavalry. If your cavalry number is less than 20% ==> all of them fights with flank bonus. If you have more than 20%. the rest of them fights without bonus. Here is order: light > heavy > elite. It means that light horses goes on flank then if there is still some "space" heavy horses goes. If there is still "space" elite horses gous until the 200% is reached. But as as said before, there is no formations in a strict meaning. It adds only bonus to the attack.

Yes, there are rounds. I suggest you to look in your battle report, it shows all rounds, all given damage, fortress hp etc. etc.


Title: Re: Mechanics of the battle
Post by: omghiha on June 23, 2012, 11:14:04 AM
you to look in your battle repor  *sos*