Imperia Online International

We have counted few things with my friends and we have only one question - when will you balance the races? They are not balanced yet ... why do we think so? Here we go - first example:

A nomad to gain 200.000 per province needs a farm on lvl 6 ... he will get such an amount sooner or later:

 200.000 people, 15th lvl of medicine, farm only lvl 6 !!! - gives 73 people per hour, terrain plains.

An imperian on the other hand:

 200.000 people, 15th lvl of medicine, farm lvl 9 !!! and 29 lvls of houses - gives 53 people per hour, terrain plains. (count the costs yourself - only lvl9 of farm costs with architecture lvl 15 sth about 2 mln od ressources :head_hurts_kr:)

We can give more of examples ... we have plenty of them ...

Nomads: +10 morale in attack on an imperian, +10% to pillage, +20% gold from pillage ... do you need much more examples or is it enough?  :head_hurts_kr:

nomads can't go ver 200k population imperians will out grow them. Realm is a long time nomads get better start imperians better finish. Also is beta so things will change as realm goe's on.

Let me see ... I had 250k population - after a pillage 72k people have gone. Do you know how much time do an imperian need to get to such an amount again? Imperians do not have such a population growth as nomads. Guess ... you will be shocked a little bit  :head_hurts_kr: Do you belive that someone will have 300.000 people in province (without capital - because it's easy)? Do you belive that when people see such an amount on your provinces they will show you mercy?  *xxx*

Yes, it is time this thing to undergo a serious discussion. However, for some things we need the late-game phase. It is hard to predict where will be the balance after half an year. And I am sure the devs have payed some careful consideration to the idea long ago. The fact that they haven't found a solution (yet) doesn't mean they don't have any idea (at all).

So, if you have any suggestions- don't be too shy to share them with us. I myself am looking for possible solutions of the problem (so that I can bug the devs too *freak* ).

How long has era got left? again nomads can't go over 200k population! *pardon* Imperians ecconomy will out grow there's. *pardon* Maybe in month or 2 will be nomads complaining most imperians have out grown them.  *pardon* As I already said era has a long time left yet you are judging on now not the whole era. And again this is beta version not completed version. Some things will change others will stay the same. *ok*

i figured same thing *freak* that's why i'd choose nomads, abuse a couple of kids and quit after 3 months *freak*

I do not think you understand one thing - 1 war, 2 pillages per province and an imperian if he wants to have as much people as he had before pillage he needs 2,5 - 3 weeks ... a nomad - less then a week. This happens when you have 200.000 people per province ... by the way if you want to have 300.000 people in a province you need medicine lvl 20, 32 lvl's of houses and farms lvl 13 ... 9th lvl costs sth about 2mln of ressources, 10th - 4 mln, 11th - 8mln, 12 - 16 mln, 13 - 32 mln ... spedning 32mln of ress to gain 20k population more? If a nomad pillages such a province with 300.000 people he will kill 85.000 people (sanctuaries included) and your population growth will fall down to 350/h ... in such case you will need more than 10 days just to have 300.000 population again ... afrer war and 2 pillages - maybe 20 days ...

I assure you a player like Forest will pillage you to the the last man in province when he finds out that you are in x2 with 300.000 people ... and I suppose that he can do it with 1/3 or 1/4 of his army. You can do nothing against that. Even if you pillage him he will have 200.000 people two days later  *black_eye* This will happen later on ... what else? Pillaging is profitable for nomads  *pardon*

An imperian therefore will never out grow a nomad.

Ironic ... if you have Fortress lvl 7 there is a cementary building even if you have not been pillaged  *hahaha*

1/3 - 1/4 of all imperians from TOP 120 are playing in one alliance, me too ... if nothing changes we will quit at the end of this year. Why? Because we have enough. It is too much for our nerves, costs too much time and money just to prove that we have right and something needs to be changed as quickly as possible. Imperians are too week: have worse economy, worse income, are worse in military. We checked it the hard way - won 3 wars and lost only once  *hihi*

Next examples?

*bravo*
i am sick and tired of building houses and farms  :head_hurts_kr:   :hard:  :evil3:

I'm sorry but i think you are one sighted.

I must say that you are right (partly) in what you are saying but there is ALWAYS another side of coin.

As nomad IM SCARED imperials would very soon start blowing me away with no troubles. I did some calculations and i tried to predict what would happen so i can do good "strategic" decisions but I can't see bright future for nomads.

The moment you get elite units we are doomed. Your fort is MUCH stronger than our fort, your army is stronger than our army, your trebs are stronger than our trebs

So YES i have to compensate with larger number of units. Now think a second. DO YOU REALLY think we can pay army upkeep to match your army. For example, right now i'm walking on tin line. I can build army VERY FAST but in the same manner VERY FAST i would not be able to pay army upkeep. So we would start selling resources and prices would go even lower than now.

As it is now, i don't even try to attack Imperian with F7 unless he is ultimate noob and don't set his army properly.

As this game advance ALL I CAN SEE is imperian would start to dominate more and more. Why the hell you need 300k population? Isn't 250k in every province more than enough to have much better economy than nomads.

Why are you so afraid of pillage??? You have guardians, you have phalanx, you have MIGHTY archers and Trebs PLUS stronger paladins than our cavalry.

So add to that calculation province bonus you would have and nomad would have to send something like 2x stronger army to brake you and pillage.

I'm sure you are experienced player but i strongly believe you are making big mistake by thinking nomads are better and that nomads would rule the realm in few months.

I really do hope i'm wrong because i would hate to run from Imperians but as i can see it what almost all nomads would be able to do later in the game is pillage. In V4a i NEVER care if somebody pillage me. By the time big wars start i have damn strong army and i make my economy works in such a way that i DON'T feel pillage.

you said it yourself I have tried to talk with you but again although your points are listened to is case you don't listen. If player keeps pillaging they will get negative honour. This is not classic IO you can not use elite archer pillager strat. (I am guessing you know about pillager strategy in classic realms). In v5 you get to much neg honour your game is ruined. It seems to me you are upset cause you lost alot of population to pillage so are ranting. You give these examples of researches needed but what you are saying they are not possible in a long realm. Have you played v4a? researches that players have there in top net cost a fortune and they got them. IF you have suggestions then make them we are interested in suggestions ofc. And pls also take into account alliance researches. You have 2 race's both have advantage's and disadvantage. That is the whole point of having 2 race's.  :head_hurts_kr:

I won a realm in V4A ... most of my friends which play in my alliance too - because those are players who have won or have been in TOP 10 on inter or other servers.

What negative honor do we speak about when in war you do not loose honor for pillaging? Nomads actually having more army and pillage power can pillage your whole account twice in war without loosing one point of honor ...

Tell me one advantage of imperians (w/o +20% of stone production and stronger fortress) that they have over nomads. This bonus ... +20% to stone production is actually not much because it is better to produce wood and sell it on the market and to buy stone - it is a lot more profitable since a long time (too many people produce stone - I think imperians try to use one of their advantages). Stronger fortress ... it depends ... actually no because nomads have +10 morale bonus to attack on an imperian. Nomads can have twice as large garnison and the army unkeep for them is not twice as small and not all units are twice as weak. Ex.: If they keep cavalry (1.2 for imperians, 0.9 for nomads - the unkeep) in fortress - which is a good idea because if enemy archers are shooting you loose less archers per round as a defender ... they pay nothing for that. Nomad units are faster, stronger, cheaper, produce twice as fast ...

Fortress lvl 7, 10th lvl of forts ... you loose sth about 50 morale on it only (12 rounds) if you have 250 catapults and some heavy swordsman. 100 morale + 10 for being a general or 1st officer + 10 for lvl 10 training + 10 attack bonus on imperian ... you are starting with 130 - 50 = 80 morale left -20 for a province being rounded  ... 10 morale for a field battle but I have not seen a report in which anyone lost with more than 40 ... one group might escape but not whole army. Also when you have some knowlege you can do something like that:

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7089/fortresslvl5.png)
BTW - it was nomads fortress lvl 5 ... with actually a very small army.

Honor is lost also for pillaging in war. Like in V4a. You dont lose honor in war for hitting weaker targets, outside of 2x. Pillaging always cost honor.
Beta realm is realm to test stuff. Some top nomads had advantage to be able to do stuff before we removed them, thats why they are so ahead. Era lasts 12 months or little less, so do you really think that nomads can pillage you all the time, having wars with you all the time... without ruining their accs. You dont think that faster researches from imperians will add something later, when researches will last very long. Nomads dont have guardians or phalanx. And every other military stuff mentioned in this topic allready.
Yes, starting as imperian is harder, because nomads have advantage on beggining, but later imperians will hve advantage. We cant give advantage to nomads first 15 days and then imperians should equalize and be stronger in 1 year era. You survive, then you rule. We cant predict everything, thats why we have beta. But future isnt so dark for imperians.

Just to have 200.000 population I need lvl 9 farm and 28th lvl of houses. To gain 250.000 I need to spend 8mln of ressources more per province. For such an amount a nomad can build army and do reserches ... 8 mln is quie a lot don't you think?


Because after pillage of 250.000 people i loose sth about 72k and I need more than a week to gain such as much again. Mighty archers? I do not think so - nomads have also archers who are 2 as cheap and 2 as weak so we are equal ... Phalanx? I wouldn't be so sure that they are so strong. Guardians - yes ... it is only hope of imperians. Trebs? No ... why? Because they will give you nothing if you do not have stronger army.


Thats not true ... a nomad needs only a little stronger army to pillage me - he can be 10% stronger only just to defeat my army and that's all.



You do not care because you do not play imperians. Playing imperians is difficult - building houses all the time (some lvl's build more than 2 days so you have to check and think when to build one before the popultion growth stops because of no free space), you need to think a lot how to spend your ressources because you do not have such an income as nomads ... you produce less because you have less people in province in early stage. Houses - of course ... they are very important but they do not raise population growth so you need farms (or you might be happy with growth of  50/h per province but I do not think so). If a nomad annex a province with fortress lvl 7 he does/t need to build anything actually ... what he has there is enough to gain 200.000 people if he has medicine lvl 15 which is quite low.

The topic is perfect for discussions and I applaud, but I will discuss balance with people with experience from realm 84. It is the less affected by all unbalances one, the realm where no player was able to get advantage, simply because the major changes (the resources in the independent provinces, the requirements for elite and heavy units etc) were made when top 84 accounts were far from this stage.   

I agree with Sheremetev that many stuff we could talk here will only have its objective result in a later stage of the realms, but we can still make our predictions and suggestions.

Suggestions ... I can count quite good but it's only maths. Let's think logically - logic is one of the oldest since of all I think.

Nomad units lets take simple archers. Actually they are twice as cheap, twice as weak then imperian archers but is it all what should be changed? Do they have only those two statistics? I agree they are twice as cheap, they are twice as weak but do they have twice less cargo, unkeep and pillage power? No. They even have more pillage power ... which is interesting. Nomads have this ability to pillage 30% of peasants which is quite a lot and they gain a lot more gold so why the unkeep is 4 times lower and not 2 times or maybe less?

Let's take a building ... a farm for example. OK nomads have farms and imperians have farms and houses so you made two buildings not one. The costs of farms should be the same so when you make an other building for imperians you should lower the price for them on farms and add something to houses. Ex lvl 1: nonad farm 3000 wood, 300 iron, 600 stone ... imperian farm 2000 wood, 200 iron, 300 stone + a house on same lvl 1000 wood, 100 iron, 300 stone and the max catapicity same for all after which population growth stops if you do not build next lvl, next lvl 2 times more expensive. OK - we have some prices, some lvls ... we can make some more differences. A nomad farm for example should have 33% more space ... so what we should do? Lower the prices for imperians by 33%. If you want to change population max, growth it should look like example above but when you give some race 2 as much population lower their productivity ...

Everything should be balanced ... what we have ingame I would't call balance. Rather things here are strange ... nomads have higher population growth (2 x current population /1000 [here should be +50 - I know]) but the second race has not such a bonus in productivity (2x current production /1000 - something like that)? OK, imperians have stone but it doesn't fit here at all ... rather it is a strange idea because if for ex. 50% of players playing imperians sell stone the prices will be very low on market which makes a very huge difference because they almost loose their "bonus" on market (they do not have any bonus to gold for selling stone).

And much, much more ... think a little bit logically and check what we have ingame. Examples (simple) are above but the one which shows that something is not right is shown in my first post.

Yovanna this bonus with resources in inderpendent provinces was the same for all players ... requirement for elite, heavy units - same for all on each realm in the same time. Some used it some not ... it is only the case of how do people play. The difference between realms is that on this second one things will be the same like on 82nd realm but people will need more time (less resources in inderpendent provinces).

Predictions ... if you change nothing ingame it is rather sure that even those imperians from TOP will loose their positions sooner or later. Some of them had high levels of fortresses in inderpendant provinces which they have annected and it gave them a lot of points. A lot of nomads which have same amount of points annected inderpendant provinces with lower levels of fortress. Points are "illusion" in this game ... to show the real power of an account just change the formula of points for annexing provinces.

It was. But nomads were the first to take advantage and loot their provinces with the millions of resources in there. And this created a giant difference between top 20 82 nomad players and the whole other part of the realm. This was the most evident moment of disbalance which, sadly, made the competition and the fair play impossible.

So ... that was the reason why you have made this change. I was thinking that you have done that because too many people sold iron because of proportions in inderpendant provinces and the market went crazy. You solved one problem (with market) but have you ever wondered why do nomads attack side provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? I have an idea why ... they do not build farms and houses and put a lot of ressources on army, they do not care about population growth too much since the beggining they have an advantage in it and in population/production. That is why they attack sooner higher levels of fortress in inderpendant provinces ... this timer which is now ingame only slows down things a little bit but the problem stays rather unsolved ...

Edit: I promised somebody  :-[ not to make any problems on international forum and not to write more controversial things so you can discuss things here but ... without me. I know that whatever I write it won't change anything, I do not even belive that you will think about things I wrote above in this topic.  *UNDECIDED*

You would be surprised.

I also had a same opinion and than i saw that they do listen. But don't expect they would listen everything you say  *hihi*

Guys ,i notice players post obvious solutions  to obvious problems.U think they dont listen,yet u discuss it on trivial level ,and complexity of balance disables any other discussion complexity but trivial and simple.Nobody is guilty for that.No one said players arent smart enough to help,but forum isnt best place for that.Its hard to be done on forum,i even think impossible.Someone must write entire book(not 5 paragraphs) to give compact suggestion core suggestion,saying growth is bad wont solve anything.Math model of realm existence is too complex.In such case ,only empiric data collection can give results and prove things.More empiric data they have (a lot of realistic situations where players have most probability of encountering again) ,more tweaks programmers can make.Solution is not in removing race buffs,but making timeline in such manner that races arent better/worse,just different.

What is useful information and good suggestion ? I will try to be constructive here:

What players must understand is that programmers are smart people .They have strong logic ,otherwise they cannot be programmers.Most of things that are written here on forum as "suggestion" are simply out of date.Programmers are aware of most (if not all) things before players are,therefore repeating what problem is doesnt help.Players are helping on wrong place .

So what is right place to help?-provide empiric data they do need ,share ur first 20 days in r84.

"hello,i play r84,from day one ,im imperian ,and i use credits and i have difficulties ,on day 7 i was attacked ,my build order was medicine,medicine,medicine,fort,fort,centralisation ,i was hit by nomad by xxxx swordsmen ,there is no build order to prevent that rush ,first 7 days of realm arent balanced.I suggest level 3 fort is cheaper for imperians."

"Im nomad ,i want to talk about early game military medicine,and i dont like term "best build order" .There is no point in making it very  very early ,because other things are better.I would like military medicine have 25% discount for first 7 levels."

"im sick of artillery ,can i pay 1 credit instead of playing it?"


But please stick to realistic situations ,not imaginary province head to head compare in some random world.Explain your position,researches,account strength ,one enemy for example,and explain how he is not better player,but yet he has terrible advantages.Tell your networth ,his networth,his activities,what he does,what u do ,and whats wrong.

I dont like overall nomads=early game,imperians=late game balance,and minor changes on right places can make every race survivable at any moment.

Your suggestions are welcome so please make them. You say you are a trusted member so please make suggestions and set example on how things can be discussed without claiming you won't be listened to or demanding instant changes. Polite straight forward suggestions and discussions is way forward. ;)

You are way underestimating me and the whole IO team. Firstly, I can think about all you say and still not agree with you. My job is to think globally and always consider multiple sides of the issue. You ask me have I ever think about why nomads attack provinces so quickly and with higher lvl of fortress? Do you really think the game you play is made by straight-line people with suspicious intelligence? I doubt it, it would be really sad. Real discussion died with this particular post of yours, but I will still expose my point of view, as an admin, not as a player (players are always disappointed, and even I am not an exception).

Nomads have their flash start. They don't have houses and, to be honest, farms are ignorable. So, every other day they have extra resource for army. Army is trained faster, so attacking your own provinces isn't such a big deal. They loot the resources faster and develop faster, but it's still in the beginning. I stress on "beginning" because nomads are able to hit the limit for approximately a month, which means that their individual province development will stop 10 times earlier than supposedly the Imperian one.

Imperians have a slower start - population grows slowly, army is trained slowly, army is expensive and hard to build, but Imperians' units are 2 times stronger in comparison with the Nomads' soldiers, so I see no imbalance especially here. Yes,  they build houses every 2 or 3 days and need the farms to enhance the pop. growth, but with exactly because of these houses they are able to have 300k population (just an example) when Nomads have just 200k and this will really give them big advantages in production.

For me and for the whole IO team in charge of this project balance does not mean equality. Both races have advantages and disadvantages, but different, that is all the race module is about. Balance (or lack of balance) in IO II is a long term concept and can (sadly for our curiosity) be estimated at the end of the eras or at least in a later stage.

Plus K for your post.

I have absolutely the same opinion as you above and if anybody took enough time (like i did with battle simulator) he/she would realize that every race have its own advantages and disandvantages.

I like nomads and play with them but if i play with Imperials i wouldn't be disappointed (maybe a bit bored at the beginning). My strategy would change a little bit but that's about it.

Case in point is that i successfully "advised" my Imperial player that is now growing VERY fast. Overall strategy for nomads and imperials is more or less the same. Differences between them are still not so drastic.

Later in the game we would learn if imperians got too much power. So far, what i can see, that's not the case. Same goes for Nomads. Trust me, as a strong nomad i'm not going around killing imperials with no trouble.

If i want to go after good (strong) nomad or imperial i need war otherwise loss of army is too big to justify any resource you take.

if the game is so imbalance then its simple everyone will just go to the imbalanced side.

we will see what happens

Yovanna: I am not underestimating you or any of your friends from IO team. You are smart CM and a very good player (sadly you have finished playing on your imperian account on r82 as far as I know). The way I write things is an other thing ... english is my third language (of four) so take some corrections on things which you read. I have written some things which you may find as unkind, impolite - I'm very sorry, it won't happen again  *rose* You also wrote something that made me rather sad:


Which as I understand means that I can't give you any useful information, suggestions, ideas about balance only because I do not play on realm 84. Interesting and sad in one.


That is the information I actually needed. One year of tests ... quite a lot just to balance races. I think there are faster ways - realm with x4 speed lasts 3 months and should give you almost all necessary information about balance. What will happen when you see that something is wrong after one year on normal speed era? Next era - next year of tests (which results actually can be the same)? That would be quite a lot. The longer we play, the longer players see that nomads have the advantage (mostly expirenced players will choose them on new servers), the harder it will be to balance the races because those who do not know a lot about game (fresh players) will choose imperians (some will choose nomads for sure but it doesent matter). But it is only my opinion.


I would check if the both races have a real chance for equality ingame. Theory is that imperians can over grow nomads economicaly - they can for sure and I do not doubt it. But it is only theory ... in practice things rather do not look so promising. It is not a problem to gain 300.000 in capital but there is serious problem to gain such an amount in side provinces. Even if you manage to get those 250.000 people per province (an example) after only one pillage you will loose about 80.000 people per province so it is quite a lot. My sugestion: Change the formula responsible for growth of imperians from: 1.0 x (amount of people pew province)/1000+50 to 1.2 x .... or 1.1 x .... or change the bonus for nomads from 30% to 20%. Pillages are too deadly for imperians for sure.

Some people fight for economic results ... points for them are important so they try their best. Every player has a map and there are some Forts in inderpendant provinces. If everybody had the same levels of Forts there would be no problem at all but when you get a map with low levels things start to be more compicated ... less resources, less points for annection. Only the difference between Fort lvl 5 and Fort lvl 6 is 7000 points (I have not counted yet how much is the difference beetween Fort lvl 6 and Fort lvl 7 but I think it is quite a lot). For me it is rather a strange idea ... when you annect Fort lvl 5 and get Fort lvl 4 but the points for annection are counted 4x Fort lvl points + points for the rest of buildings (correct me if I am wrong). When you have a lot of Forts lvl 7 in 3rd circle it is very good - if you have only Forts lvl 6 it is not so good ... a lot depends on luck and I do not think it should be like that. 1x Forts lvl + the rest of buildings ok ... but 4x Forts + rest of buildings is too much.

Samyoboy: PM.

OK. Thank you for your attention ... that was really my last post here. I wish you a nice discussion.

Batista,

I'm sorry but i just cant agree with you. Yovanna was right when she spoke of R84 because they fixed bugs and level some things out BEFORE R84 started. So players from 84 would have better "view" on how ballanced game actually is.

Early in the game (r82) you could gain HUGE resoruces and HUGE advantage by misusing some game bugs. I also grow like mushroom back then but i tough that's how they set the game. Unfortunately i start 2 weeks later so i wasn't able to use "the bug" to full extent. BUT you don't see me complaining why i can't be in No1 or even No20 place by net points.

The game is beta so those "things" happens.

BUT

Proof that they did "right" thing to balance races is this (R84)

(http://clip2net.com/clip/m50744/1291743174-clip-10kb.png)


I was VERY surprised when i saw Imperian on 1st place by net points. So MAYBE they gave too much of "balance" to Imperian. Or maybe not? We are too early in the game to give any definitive answer to that.

As a bottom line i do believe you don't have much ground for your claims. Maybe the game is "hard" to you and you see no "way out" but obviously some other Imperians are doing just fine.

the game is probably way to long just for a beta, its like its a year long experiment, and maybe even all balance probs won't get fixed for next era *crazy*

Sure you can expose your opinion, no matter where you play, the forum is the right place to say and suggest whatever you consider appropriate. I just meant that realm 82 is already too imbalanced and the lack of balance there is not due to the races but to the major changes we'd made. So, having this lack of balance it would be hard to constructively consider the probable imbalanced races. 

balance or no balance, imperians have huge costs of farms and houses.  i have never played nomad but imperians have to be patient farmers cause the 1st circle provs once you get over 100k pop you need to start making farms everywhere almost daily.  i spent many millions today on farms just to get pop growth over 100/hour and the 1st circle provs have only 120k population.  i will never get to 200k in 1st circle, the cost of farms would be excessive, my next farm costs almost as much or more than level 20 university, thats just absurd...

IMO this will end up being changed cause i will only get to 200k pop next fall cause i just cant make enough farms whereas nomads get to 200k quite easily judging by some low point nomads i have seen whilst farming....

 *hihi* *hihi* *hihi*

THE BEST by far explanation of imperians  *freak*

Farmers play imperians those that love to fight play nomads.

Cant understand why you complain???

neko, i have played aggressive, been a marshall, i opt normally to farm in the beginning.  batista´s complaint above IMO is legitimate cause the price of farms and houses are quite large.  all of my 1st circle provs farms now cost more than 500k wood, to get to 200k pop i will need to invest throughout the realm in farms whereas a nomad gets to 200k in provs without that expenditure.  yeah, i know the other advantages imperians have, but the sheer cost of farms i think is too high, reducing the eventual advantage of greater population imperians have vs nomads....

farm for me cost 1.7million wood  :head_hurts_kr:

in maybe one province, not in all provinces, either that or you are a farm building machine with populations in all provs well over 200k in every province....

i am trying to keep pop growth over 100/hour in every province but it just isnt possible if you plan on building anything else, like army or big research, the population as it grows gets slower and slower and will eventually stop if you dont keep on chugging the damn farms.

i built a temple last night that cost me 1.3M wood and 784k stone, just absurd......lol  and that´s with level 20 arch....

so yesterday i built a farm in my 1st circle mountain province to get pop growth over 100, this less than 24 hours ago.  it is now once again at 39/hour.  this is too much, to reemedy this situation i must now spend 510k wood, 57k iron and 175k stone.....

millions a day on farms as an imperian....

Sorry for offtopic  *UNDECIDED*

Numpty do not build farms everywhere - it is not a good idea. It is better to build them mostly in 1st circle provinces because you will rise the growth of population there which means that the population there will be larger than in 2nd circle provinces. 1st circle provinces have max. happiness over 100 - 120, those from 2nd circle have 90 - 100 so if you have more population in provinces with higher max. happiness you will also have higher avarage happiness. It is rather a good strategy ... I had almost 1mln population and the avarage happiness was almost 107 - it would be much higher but I was pillaged once in capital. This strategy has also other good sides ... think a little bit and you will find them out. I won't write here everything I know  *pardon*

i have been making farms only in 1st circle.  2nd circle for now is fine, my objective is to always keep all provs at 100/hour growth, any circle.  the only problem is the damn mountains and i have 4, they are more difficult to maintain over 100k

100/h in all provs is not a good idea. You have not been pillaged as I think. As an imperian you should have farms, sanctuaries and forts as high as possible in first circle. I wouldn't care about 2nd circle provinces so much ... maybe forts yes - for production bonus. Why? If I were a nomad and we had war I wouldn't pillage you in all provinces ... only those from first circle twice on max damage. Why? Just to lower your avarage happiness to 100 or lower. You would loose a lot population in first circle and not in 2nd one where max. happiness is low. The rest of damage would be done by other players who might have (but do not have to) avarage happiness at 105.1 or more. For each 5 points players loose 1% of population ... in such case when the difference is more than 5 points you would loose 2%. You have more than 1 mln. population overall so each day you would loose 2% of 1mln which is about 20.000 people daily when the difference would be 5 points or more or 10.000 people when it would be less then 5 points. Imperians population recovery time is rather low so you would loose population each day and not gaining it from other players for over a week or more. In case of difference of 5 points or more your total loss would be 40.000 people, in case of 5 points or less - 20.000 daily actually. If you do not count population which you gain from other players the numbers are not so high but ... you wrote that you have 100ppl/h in each province so it makes about 1000 ppl overall ... after pillage it would be 2000 maybe (but really I do not think that you would have so much) so such loss - even 10.000 people daily (1%) longers your recovery time after pillage to sth about 4h-5h more per day.

P.S. Such thing does not work on nomads because they have high people growth and they recover faster after pillage.

Conclusions? Imperians have too small people growth or can be pillaged on too high percentage. Choose option which you like - both are good.

You have made an example of some imperians which are in TOP 10 on 84th realm I think. Ok - they are there now but they have not got a lot of population now (pillage on a small amount of population is not so deadly). When they reach 1mln and someone will pilage them once or twice in 1st circle provinces (with capital) they will start to fall down in ranking.

yes i was pillaged and loss 47k population, however i learned my lesson and increase medicine....the problem is in wars nomads can pillage twice so that will destroy imperians....

the real unfairness comes from the fact that nomads can have 200k pop quicker than imperians and recover faster.  im fairly certain i need to develp something like leve 30 medicine to recover pop as quick as nomads.  for an imperian to have 200k pop in all provs wqill take a long time and not get pillaged cause 1st level provs to get to 200k need at least level 8, 9 or 10 farms and level 8 costs 1M wood alone....

dont think this is balanced but we will see....

Numphy,

I can't say i don't understand some of your frustration but i'm a little bit confused why you complain that much.

As i can see you are VERY high ranked and you did it rather fast. I remember when you had less points than i did and that was something like 20 day's ago. 20 day's ago both of us were in lower 60 position.

So from your growth it's obvious that imperians are not in that much of disadvantage.

You know i play nomads and i'm rather aggressive, i take all i need from other players and i believe i grow nicely.

Sure i don't use credits and i don't know if you are using it (i suspect you do because you grow damn fast) so part of your growth can be explained by that. As nomad that is not using credits i just cant match your speed of growth.

Anyway if IO makes your life even easier imagine where you would end. Nobody and nothing would be able to stop Imperians to rule the realm with no troubles.

As i see it now maybe IO already did too much of "leverage" to imperians because if i can't match you now there is no way i would be able to match you in 2 or 3 months period.

yes i use credits, that has ALOT to do with my growth.  more importantly is the alliance researches, my alliances researches are likely much higher than yours, makes everything go faster.  most of the speed and difference between you and me is directly related to these two facts and add to that 1600 attacks are farms and better production of resources and it explains the 48k difference in our points.

what i complain about is the equality in growth rates.  it is a fact nomads grow quickly to 200k.  there is an ally of mine with 60k less points, he has 2100 growth rate and higher pop in all his 1st circle provs except 1.  he told me he made no farms.  i built yesterday in all my 1st circle provs 1 level of farm at 500k wood, 57k iron and 200k stone.  my current growth rate slightly over 1600k/hour.  i have only 1 prov over 200k, all the rest are under 150k and to get to 200k i will need at least 2 more levels of farms to do it quickly. the argument that imperians can get over 200k population therefore have an advantage is incorrect becasue for me to get to 200k i have to spend an incredible amount of resources on farms and houses.  my next house in province 1 cost me 1M wood, 70k iron and 500k stone.  curiously my 2nd circle provinces are beginning to catch up to my 1st circle provinces.  oh and i have level 17 medicine, therefore my growth rate is absurd, but still less than my ally that doesnt have level 17 medicine.  i see inactive farms with 1000 points and 200k pop.  find me an imperian farm with 1000 points and 100k pop, you wont find one.

this is not complaining, like yovanna said, it is stating a point of view utilizing in-game experience.  the only problem i see thus far is the 1st circle provinces, they are too slow to grow and expensive if i plan to keep up with nomads population-wise.  like i said, ill be around to see if it is correctly balanced, i think not, there needs to be an upward revision of imperian 1st circle growth rates and/or a reduction in farm/house prices.....

i am not the ideal player to compare yourself with cause of the diamonds and cause i will start fighting shortly = losing points/troops...

ill just say that expensive progress is better than capped progress.When stage where researches run all the time is reached,every place where u can invest (high houses and farms) has great importance.What about fort 9? banking potential of it?

i agree 100%, you are correct fragmaster!  i am not stating i am correct about anything at all, i might very well be wrong about everything.  if you ask my wife and mother, they will tell you i am always wrong about things:-) 

i get the feeling that these high costs at an early stage of houses and farms will skew final results, if im wrong i will come here and state i was wrong, at this point i dont think so, but i think this realm will go longer than expected therefore over the next 9 months im sure we will have all the right answers....

errr xcuse me, but have you thought that nomads need to grow like hell since their soldiers fall like dominoes? *freak*

to illustrate the difficulty, my pop growth has dropped 171/hour since yesterday afternoon.  here I go again making more farms, actually no i wont cause, i dont have enough friggin wood!!!!!

i remember sayin this....:

i think you are starting to understand me  *hihi*

If i my chipp in a reply, Nomads dont have elite swords and elite javelinman, so thats a minus. the population is capped, unless of colonization which can bring a relief when implemented, i think Imperians have a better edge in this game as the elite armies can easily kill that of nomads, have you simmed 10,000 paladins against 10,000 nomad elites, they fall like pack of cards.

Yes but check the costs  *pardon*

and you check hit points and attack.

It is very leveled. Yes you pay 2 times more for unit that is 2 times stronger. What a ripoff.

By the way while you check the prices and attack/hit points, check catapults and trebs too.

And than complain how imperians got shitty side of stick.

You pay THE SAME for unit that is much stronger

As far as am concerned, any imperian around me that i can lay my hands upon is in for hell cause they are too strong, i cant wait till those elites start ruinning my day *freak*

Yes siege engines ... but I attack a nomad with -10 morale just because he is a nomad. 10 morale is sth about 2 rounds. Almost each nomad unit has twice as much cargo and pillage power for same price.