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Author Topic: United WORLD!!!  (Read 38794 times)
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HerrSchultze
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« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2009, 23:46:17 PM »

they allready got one, wat pisses me off that israel sure has one , but The World isnt worried about that, Israel is Angel, Iran is evil  evil4
i believe i heard they have one, but they haven't used it tho  *pardon*
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« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2010, 14:19:34 PM »

Wow, so much misinformation going on in this thread! *Shocked*

3_Hezbollah in Lebannon : terrorists!!!!!!!!! why? coz they are the only one left to defend against Israel... good enough reason for USA,,, i am HALF LEBANESE, and let me tell you, Israel still holds alot of lebanese territory is the SOuth, rich in water,,, when i go to lebannon i see everyday ISRAELI PLAINS flying above my head, but nobody talks about that....
I would love it if you showed exactly which territories those are! Because the UN has agreed that Israel has already fulfilled all of its obligations in fully retreating from Lebanon. How about you show these areas on a map?
The truth of the matter is, Hezbollah has absolutely no excuse for firing rockets at civilians. Not that there ever could be one, anyway.

Your reframing of the Israeli-Arab conflict is likewise false. You present a narrative with good guys and bad guys, the poor Palestinians/Lebanese suffering under the yolk of the ruthless Israelis, which conveniently ignores both historical records and the current situation on the ground. Last I checked, good guys did not explode buses full of civilians or fired mortars and rockets at kindergartens.  evil4

It is also false that Israelis are not willing to compromise in Jerusalem. Just one of many examples can be found in this initiative. Grassroots movements such as this one can further show you that substantial parts of both people are willing to compromise and live side by side.
Both Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution, where Palestine and Israel both have a right to exist side by side; sadly, the extremists control the discourse through violence and unilateral action.
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« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2010, 18:37:07 PM »

Wow, so much misinformation going on in this thread! *Shocked*
I would love it if you showed exactly which territories those are! Because the UN has agreed that Israel has already fulfilled all of its obligations in fully retreating from Lebanon. How about you show these areas on a map?
The truth of the matter is, Hezbollah has absolutely no excuse for firing rockets at civilians. Not that there ever could be one, anyway.

Your reframing of the Israeli-Arab conflict is likewise false. You present a narrative with good guys and bad guys, the poor Palestinians/Lebanese suffering under the yolk of the ruthless Israelis, which conveniently ignores both historical records and the current situation on the ground. Last I checked, good guys did not explode buses full of civilians or fired mortars and rockets at kindergartens.  evil4

It is also false that Israelis are not willing to compromise in Jerusalem. Just one of many examples can be found in this initiative. Grassroots movements such as this one can further show you that substantial parts of both people are willing to compromise and live side by side.
Both Israelis and Palestinians support a two-state solution, where Palestine and Israel both have a right to exist side by side; sadly, the extremists control the discourse through violence and unilateral action.
were gonna take this step by step  *Smiley*
1- Here you are , those are Shebaa Farms occupied since forever,
2- " Hezbollah has no excuse firing rockets at civilians ".... what civilians? dude Hezbollah didnt fire anything on civilians before Israel started the war, they just kidnapped 2 soldiers to trade them for lebanese prisoners held in Israel
3- And whats so false there referring to the case as Israel being supported by USA?, and Arabs turning their back to Palestine coz of the American lobby influence?  ISRAEL USED PHOSPHORIC BOMBS IN LEBANON WICH IS FORBIDDEN IN INTERNATIONAL LAWS! we saw it, we filmed it, we had evidence of it, and still in International court they were found innocent *sad*

You say good guys do not explose bombs on civilians.... when i was watching the war on Lebannon from Africa *sad* ,they showed a statistic of TF1 ( french tv channel ), they showed how many civilians Israel killed from 2004 till 2006, and how many Israeli civilians were killed, the number were rdidiculous! in one month Israel killed 1100 civilians in Lebannon , that was LARGLY more than Israeli civilans killed over 2 years.

And they bombed big Lebanese Industries such as our biggest CHocolate factory ( GHANDOUR ) , and a big Glass industry wich took projects in Dubai that Israeli industries wanted to grab first
4- Why didnt you say anything about the BIG WALL ?

Where is the misinformation? things i say here most of you wont ever see or hear on your TV because of the big propagana wich is: Arabs = terrorists and evil, Israel and USA = the GOOD power, fighting terrorism in the world
Where did this so called Terrorism come from? if you or your father were obliged to destroy your own house, and move beyond THE WALL, what would you feel groing up? check this link http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=2100 , this was forbidden to be shown on popular TV channels in France, because of the strong Israeli LObby, but they showed it on Channels that are rarely watched
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« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2010, 23:07:44 PM »

were gonna take this step by step  *Smiley*
1- Here you are , those are Shebaa Farms occupied since forever,
Nice, you didn't show that on a map. But I will.
The Shebaa farms are an area of 22 square kilometers that was captured along the rest of the Golan heights during the Syrian offensive in 1967.
Even assuming that this is indeed Lebanese territory, which is itself in dispute, this forms roughly 0.2% of the total 10,452 km2 territory of Lebanon.
Hezbollah was formed while Israel was occupying South Lebanon, from which Israel has withdrawn unilaterally. Mind you, this was after years and years of trying to reach a withdrawal by agreement, except Hezbollah refused to commit to stopping the rocket attacks against Israeli towns. The final withdrawal is complete by any standard, something to which the UN has agreed. Hezbollah did not exist in 1967 when the Shebaa farms were set up, indeed not for 15 more years at least, and basically it has no reason for even existing still - much less attacking Israel.

So to summarize, Hezbollah is justified in fighting Israel for a disputed 22 km2 territory that may or may not be Lebanese to begin with? And this justifies their attacks on civilians? This has to be the worst Casus Beli I've ever heard about, right after the Lilliputian wae over which side an egg should be cracked on.

2- " Hezbollah has no excuse firing rockets at civilians ".... what civilians? dude Hezbollah didnt fire anything on civilians before Israel started the war, they just kidnapped 2 soldiers to trade them for lebanese prisoners held in Israel
There are two serious problems with that argument.
The first is, Hezbollah has fired mortars, rockets and shells, both before and during the kidnapping.
In May 2006, months before the fighting began, rockets were fired deep into Israeli territory. There have been earlier attacks as well; Israel's foreign affairs ministry has conveniently kept a record of all attacks between the withdrawal in 2000 and the eruption of fighting in 2006, and though obviously they are biased, I don't think you would dispute the following:
Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.
Or this one:
Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.
In addition, the kidnapping itself was accompanied by rockets fired at Zar'it and Shlomi, two civilian villages. So, Hezbollah, has been firing at civilians all along; both when Israel was inside Lebanon, and when it was outside it. That doesn't seem to matter.

The second glaring error in your argument is that the kidnapping and killing of these soldiers was somehow justified, in order to release Lebanese prisoners held in Israel.
I will remind you, that the Hezbollah operation was named "Freedom for Samir Al-Quntar and his brothers". Samir Al-Quntar, we will note, was in Israeli prison after having infiltrated the country by way of a rubber boat, entered into a peaceful town in the dead of night, and brutally murdered as many people as he could find, including a four year old girl he beat to death with the butt of his rifle.
That is who Hezbollah kidnapped and killed two soldiers for. Samir Al-Quntar was not a prisoner of war, nor even a soldier, for that matter. He was and still is a heinous murderer. In a word: A terrorist. To claim that releasing him would justify anything, much less the death and destruction brought on by the kidnapping, would be laughable if it were not so appalling and morally bankrupt.

Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
3- And whats so false there referring to the case as Israel being supported by USA?, and Arabs turning their back to Palestine coz of the American lobby influence?
While these points can be disputed, I was referring to your very one-sided description of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as well as the current situation in the West Bank and Gaza. I find it to be misleading and unfaithful to the intricacies of the situation.

Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
  ISRAEL USED PHOSPHORIC BOMBS IN LEBANON WICH IS FORBIDDEN IN INTERNATIONAL LAWS! we saw it, we filmed it, we had evidence of it, and still in International court they were found innocent *sad*
First, I'm not aware of any Israeli soldiers or officials tried in an Intl. court, for this allegation or any other. You may want to provide a source for this claim.

Second, is this better or worse than firing rockets with metal-pellet warheads designed to harm civilians, directly into city centers? Is that more or less forbidden under International Law than posing as UN personnel and holding up the UNIFIL insignia in order to kidnap soldiers? Phosphorous shells at least have a purpose in attacking armor; what's Hezbollah's excuse?

The fact of the matter is, Hezbollah has always been more than willing to use every dirty trick in the book, be it hiding among civilians, attacking civilians directly, posing as peacekeeping forces, kidnapping people and not letting the Red Cross visit them (is that according to Intl. Law?), or even letting their families know if they're alive, for years on end. I find it amazing that anyone is trying to justify their actions.

Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
You say good guys do not explose bombs on civilians.... when i was watching the war on Lebannon from Africa *sad* ,they showed a statistic of TF1 ( french tv channel ), they showed how many civilians Israel killed from 2004 till 2006, and how many Israeli civilians were killed, the number were rdidiculous! in one month Israel killed 1100 civilians in Lebannon , that was LARGLY more than Israeli civilans killed over 2 years.

And they bombed big Lebanese Industries such as our biggest CHocolate factory ( GHANDOUR ) , and a big Glass industry wich took projects in Dubai that Israeli industries wanted to grab first

Let's get a few things straight.
First of all, a death toll does not make a person, or an ideology, right. People get killed by accident, as well as by intention; some fighting forces risk their civilians more than others, in the absence of military might. That isn't to say that Israel's actions were proportionate, or careful enough; and yet, disregarding civilians when firing at targets and targeting civilians directly are two actions that are not morally equivalent.
Secondly, the 1100 deaths you cite were not all civilians. That is another example where you try to embellish the situation to make it seem more one-sided, but the fact of the matter is Hezbollah fighters did not wear uniforms, and the line between where a person is a civilian and where they are a combatant becomes blurred when dealing with such entities. That isn't to say, that no civilians were harmed, in large numbers; but let's not make up facts.
Third, even though Israel's actions were not justified, they were not the naked act of aggression you make them out to be but rather, an attack fueled by frustration. The sentiment in the Israeli street has been one of impotent rage for many years, following the continued attacks. Continuing from what we discussed above, right after the retreat from South Lebanon, Hezbollah kidnapped three soldiers. The organization then refused to let them be visited, or indeed disclose any information about them, unless Israel releases hundreds of prisoners in exchange. After 4 years of torment, the pressure from the families was too much and Israel acquiesced to these demands, only to receive bodies in return to live, healthy prisoners. The soldiers apparently bled to death during the kidnapping while the kidnappers did nothing.
Israel's decisive attack in the wake of the 2006 kidnapping was a direct attempt to avoid repeating that sort of tragedy again. In addition, Hezbollah was being armed with thousands of short and medium-range rockets by Syria and Iran for those six years, a fact well known to both Israeli decision makers and the Israeli public. When the serious assault on Israeli towns began, this naturally escalated and intensified the attacks on Lebanon.
The point to be made here is not that Israel's actions were justified; but rather, that this cycle of violence brings no solutions, but rather only propagates more violence. Where such a cycle exists, no side can claim innocence, since their own actions perpetuate it.

Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
4- Why didnt you say anything about the BIG WALL ?
What do you want me to say? People shoot at cars and infiltrate night clubs with bombs strapped to their bodies, and then they cry when their targets erect a wall to stop gun fire and prevent people from just crossing into wherever they please.
While the path of the separation barrier is in dispute - indeed, it was a unilateral move that created some serious problems - there is nothing inherently wrong with having a barrier between two territories. Many borders around the world have a fence or a wall, including North/South Korea, India/Pakistan, and other hot borders (these two also happen to have started from one state with a mixed ethnic composition, mind). Spain, Morocco, Saudi Arabia... Walls are not out of the ordinary. The only real issue is that the separation wall is not built along an agreed-upon border - an unfortunate consequence of many years of unilateralism, a legacy of the Bush doctrine. In that, I think we agree.

Quote from: Israel Foreign Affairs Ministry
Where is the misinformation?
It can be found in the following quotes, all of which I dispute:

*****************

defenetly israel wouldnt even consider it...
See my link to the two movements in the earlier post.

i think when even when they will propose peace, they will do it with a mediocre offer, giving palestenians a very small piece of land, so that palestenians refuse it, then they can say : Look ! they dont want it...
all i wanna see is as u said a palestenian state, and a respectable one
Again, see my link to the Geneva Accord. 100% of the territory of the WB and Gaza is "giving them a small piece of land"? Or rather, all the land they're currently sitting on, plus a little more from Israel's territory?

this whole discrimnation gives you the feeling to pay back, to revenge, to fight for ur rites by all means necessary, they are develloping terrorisme , then to use it against them
Are they a minority being discriminated against fighting to have equal rights as citizens, or a whole different nationality under occupation striving to have their own country? You can't have both, yet it seems you try to.

well no... first english and french started to bring Jewish people to Palestine and assembled them in a way to form a circle around the country,( by the way there was always Jews in Lebannon and Palestine), then Jews started to push IN, and when the world declared the formation of Israel in 1948 or so , war started (.......)
then when Jews took control they decided the Isarelis should not mix up with the Palestenians, so they circled them between these walls
Can u imagine? 2 weeks ago we were celvrating the memory of the Fall of Berlin Wall...
now there is Israeli WALLS *freak*
WAY overly simplistic, and wrong at points. Support your claims with references, this can't be taken seriously.

Jews have the rite to have their country, and Palestenians have the rite to have their contry BACK...
you cant just come to a country say its yours, and leave its people without any identity destroying many years of culture
Likewise misrepresents the facts.

*****************

things i say here most of you wont ever see or hear on your TV because of the big propagana wich is: Arabs = terrorists and evil, Israel and USA = the GOOD power, fighting terrorism in the world
Such world views are overly simplistic; it doesn't help that you try to provide an opposite yet similarly simplistic, and similarly false, view of the events.

check this link http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=2100 , this was forbidden to be shown on popular TV channels in France, because of the strong Israeli LObby, but they showed it on Channels that are rarely watched
That your link was somehow banned from television is patently absurd, because it's not a video segment. You also should have summarized what it was about, because no one is obligated to visit those links on the pretext that they somehow prove your point and/or are shocking.
Regardless, all it shows is that houses get demolished if built without a permit. The segment you bring describes this as part of some plot to be mean to poor Palestinians, but conveniently neglects to mention that houses built within Israel that do not comply with zoning committee regulations also get demolished, by court order - either self-demolished or by the municipality.
In most modern countries, buildings require a process of authorization before they are built, you can't just build whatever you want anywhere you want. If a country can't enforce this by demolishing illegal structures, how can it enforce this?
This isn't to say, that the demolishing of buildings is without its loopholes, exploits, and bad judgement - but only as part of the general nasty business that is bureaucracy, not as some insidious plot.

In short, some healthy criticism will do you a world of good. There is a good reason why people have been branded terrorists and are feared and loathed. Nothing justifies strapping on explosives and going to blow up a bus or a restaurant. It is understandable that they are frustrated and angry, but targeting innocents does not become any less heinous because of it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 23:11:49 PM by Polymeron » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2010, 00:42:59 AM »

WOW Poly i can quote you on every post and we can go at it endlesly...

For one, dont think everybody in Lebanon supports Hezbollah, and some want them to surrender their weapons, so why doesnt Israel make a step forward, free Shebaa Farms and release Lebanese prisoners, so that Hezbollah would have less arguments when their weapons are brought into cause in discussions?
And what do you expect when Israel entered Beirut in 1982 when it was meant for them to advance just to Litany River? Of course resistence forces will get supplies and ammunition and get more popular among citizans! Should we mention what happened in Sabra & Chatila camp ?( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre ) , you can find as many videos and stories about this bloody massacre, which was followed by the entrance of Israeli forces, those who carried out this massacre was the Lebanese Forces ( aka Phalangistes ), Ariel Sharon gave them all they required to carry out this massacre, Israeli tanks provided light on this camp during nights so nobody escapes, there was so many blood spilled in one week... Is that a good enough reason for existing for Hezbollah aor fighting back Israel?

2-Hezbollah is a resistence force, and what do you expect them to fight with? forks and knives? while israel has that elite aviation fleet provided by USA? nobody minded that obviously in the early years

3- You say i make one sided arguments... what about you? your like asking proven evidence so i can prove Phosphorus bombs...here is a link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5519433.ece , and i have loads of pictures on my mail inbox of phosphorus bombs used in Palestine, i can provide that too

4-1100 were all citizens! all children , women and citizans! hezbollah has lost over 1700 fighters i think maybe more i dont recall the exact number, and you say hezbollah fighters dress as civilians... where they in discize in that GHANDOUR factory or that GLASS factory? or even in north of Lebannon where Hezbollah doesnt even exist? you just hit a builiding where you think hezbollah fighters are hiding, and then 50 civilians die, and you say : well this is war, civilains die.... yeah how one sided from one my part really

Theres much more i can say .... but Poly are you saying that Israels acts have been fair since they established their country? you make your country in Palestine by force, take plaestenians homes, build new israeli homes,  submitt palestenians to Israeli laws , geez the palestenian goverment was arrested once for 2 weeks because they refused to sign a peace treaty or a cease fire!!!!!!!!!

Living in Lebannon my freind, im sorry i cant be more supportive for Israel. Ive seen enough suffering and conflicts in my country, that all i want to see now is just everybody stop playing football on in our field! all middle east conflictsdepend alot on what happens in Lebannon and politticians bargain on that. All i wanna see is that Palestenians given their country and state back(, and a fair deal, not a one that will violate their rite, and when they refuse just say they are the ones that are not willing to settle) , giving Lebannon back Shebaa Farms ( 22KM², i dont care its still ours , without it were not 10425 km²), Hezbollah surrending their weapons, and finally PEACE PEACE PEACE!!!!!!
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« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2010, 02:33:25 AM »



That your link was somehow banned from television is patently absurd, because it's not a video segment. You also should have summarized what it was about, because no one is obligated to visit those links on the pretext that they somehow prove your point and/or are shocking.
Regardless, all it shows is that houses get demolished if built without a permit. The segment you bring describes this as part of some plot to be mean to poor Palestinians, but conveniently neglects to mention that houses built within Israel that do not comply with zoning committee regulations also get demolished, by court order - either self-demolished or by the municipality
.
In most modern countries, buildings require a process of authorization before they are built, you can't just build whatever you want anywhere you want. If a country can't enforce this by demolishing illegal structures, how can it enforce this?
This isn't to say, that the demolishing of buildings is without its loopholes, exploits, and bad judgement - but only as part of the general nasty business that is bureaucracy, not as some insidious plot.

yeah nobody is obliged to check this link, niehter obliged to read your posts even, still i provide the link for those who want to know what is really going on, you really break it out wisely dont you?
" Houses that build within Israel municimality thadt do not complywith zoning commitee regulations "....i will summarize : Israel settles downs in palestine, sets new rules that say in this zone no Palestenian houses are allowed, take them down!!!!! YES HOW FAIR !!!!! now at least they have rules to  back up the destruction of those houses.
 And i want to say this out loud :  THEY WERE OBLIGED TO TAKE DOWN THEIR HOUSES , IF NOT, YES THE MUNICIPALITY WILL TAKE THEM DOWN, BUT BUT BUT THOSE PALESTENIANS SHOULD PAY THE MUNICPALITY THE DESTRUCTION FEES!!!!!!
so you build a house, now new laws and rules are in place and suddenly your house is illegal, and you should destroy it with your own hands, or pay for it to be destruct.
you say il giving one side arguments, well your ( as many others ) defenetly not a bit concerned of what the Palestenians have suffered and see only one side of the story, this is why i speak from the other side....
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« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2010, 02:37:07 AM »

read this http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL3475163
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« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2010, 04:05:07 AM »

OMG..who writes so much... *freak*
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« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2010, 16:53:36 PM »

WOW Poly i can quote you on every post and we can go at it endlesly...
Feel free. But try not to insert more misinformation into the conversation.

For one, dont think everybody in Lebanon supports Hezbollah, and some want them to surrender their weapons, so why doesnt Israel make a step forward, free Shebaa Farms and release Lebanese prisoners, so that Hezbollah would have less arguments when their weapons are brought into cause in discussions?
Like Israel withdrew from South Lebanon in 2000? That "step forward" didn't get the attacks to stop, did it?
If it's not the Shebaa farms, they will fight Israel in the name of aiding Palestinian struggle against occupation. If Palestinians get a state, they will find some other excuse.

You require Israel to unilaterally acquiesce to the demands of its attackers in order to get the attacks to stop, but with no promise or guarantee that they will. Here's a better, more sensible idea: Why don't Lebanon, Syria and Israel sit down to negotiate an actual peace agreement, that may include returning occupied land and releasing prisoners? Such an agreement would require the militias to disarm, of course. But if all they want is an end to the occupation of land, why wouldn't they agree to it?
The fact of the matter is, Hezbollah has refused to such initiatives in the past. Thus Israel has absolutely no incentive to cede over land or release prisoners - Israel believes the attacks will continue if they do. So do I. Unless the warring sides sit down to talk peace, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

And what do you expect when Israel entered Beirut in 1982 when it was meant for them to advance just to Litany River? Of course resistence forces will get supplies and ammunition and get more popular among citizans! Should we mention what happened in Sabra & Chatila camp ?( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre ) , you can find as many videos and stories about this bloody massacre, which was followed by the entrance of Israeli forces, those who carried out this massacre was the Lebanese Forces ( aka Phalangistes ), Ariel Sharon gave them all they required to carry out this massacre, Israeli tanks provided light on this camp during nights so nobody escapes, there was so many blood spilled in one week... Is that a good enough reason for existing for Hezbollah aor fighting back Israel?
No, it's not. Or at least, it's not anymore. I'm not saying there was no justification for resistance against occupation; but that occupation is gone. Hezbollah has no justification for its existence as an armed militia anymore, because the very things you cite as the reasons no longer exist.

2-Hezbollah is a resistence force
Resisting what, exactly? Israel no longer occupies South Lebanon. Your "resistance force" has parliament members in a (supposedly) sovereign state. That's not very guerrilla of them, is it? They don't exactly live in caves and holes

and what do you expect them to fight with? forks and knives? while israel has that elite aviation fleet provided by USA? nobody minded that obviously in the early years
Two problems with this.
First off, Hezbollah is very well armed and trained, receiving financial, ordnance and training support from both Syria and Iran. This is also why this organization is promoting their interests in the region, rather than those of the Lebanese people themselves.
Secondly, what I expect is that if Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance movement, it would fight the "oppressing" military exclusively, in the occupied region. That means not targeting civilians. I notice that you bring no counter evidence to this organization's use of anti-personnel rockets against cities nor other methods of targeting and killing innocents, nor the other violations of International law. This undermines your point that they are a legitimate organization. Rather, they are a terrorist group.

Again, the sensible solution is for the sides to come to an agreement. I reject your justification of Hezbollah attacks on civilians by them being a "resistance movement" or having less resources than the IDF, as if that can ever justify murdering innocents.

3- You say i make one sided arguments... what about you?
I don't think I did. You're welcome to quote me and show what you think is out of balance. Note that I have pointed you to two bi-national movements' websites.

your like asking proven evidence so i can prove Phosphorus bombs...here is a link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5519433.ece , and i have loads of pictures on my mail inbox of phosphorus bombs used in Palestine, i can provide that too
Re-read what I said. This link discusses spent shells found in Gaza. It does not speak of Israeli soldiers in International court, which was what I asked support for. I did not dispute your claims of white phosphorous being used in Lebanon, nor did I agree with them. I did not find it relevant to the discussion, because I was not trying to defend Israel's actions. You, on the other hand, claim that Hezbollah is justified in its actions. I have shown that it is not.

you just hit a builiding where you think hezbollah fighters are hiding, and then 50 civilians die, and you say : well this is war, civilains die.... yeah how one sided from one my part really
I am sure I never said that. Feel free to quote where I did. In fact, I'm fairly certain I said this sort of careless disregard of civilians is wrong.
However I stand by my original statement: Though not justified, such actions are not morally equivalent to deliberately targeting civilians.

Theres much more i can say .... but Poly are you saying that Israels acts have been fair since they established their country?
I am not saying that, no. Some actions were justified, others were not. The same can be said about all other parties. That is where our accounts differ, with yours being one-sided.

you make your country in Palestine by force,
If "being attacked by seven other nations in addition to civil war" is considered "make your country in Palestine by force", then yes. Again this is a misrepresentation of the facts, since the UN recognized Israel as a state, which was followed by attacks from its neighbors with intent to destroy the fledgling nation. Note that Jewish settlements where the defensive failed, such as Kefar Ezion, were destroyed utterly, with every last defender getting gunned down.
This is a bit of a double standard for you, because you seem to think it's alright for the Palestinians and Lebanese to strike back with force, but it's not alright for the Israelis to have fought to defend their own homes.

take plaestenians homes,
The Palestinian refugees problem is much more complicated than this.

build new israeli homes,
People building homes. How evil.

  submitt palestenians to Israeli laws ,
Actually, with the exception of those in annexed neighborhoods of Jerusalem, Palestinians are under military occupation, so they are subject to military law. This is precisely the issue at hand regarding Israeli occupation of the West Bank. But it's not as if Palestinians were under their own rule before 1967; the land was just as occupied, only by the Jordanians.
At any rate, an occupying army is required to govern an occupied territory and set rules there, by international law, until the region is returned, which of course we all hope will move forward expediently. The only other alternative is lawlessness, which I don't think would be in the best interests of the Palestinians.

Regarding those Palestinians in annexed neighborhoods of Jerusalem, they do answer to Israeli law, and are free to move around in Israel. They are also entitled to social security benefits and are generally better off than many Arab citizens around the world. However I agree that a more permanent solution is required, as well as them receiving citizenship in their own sovereign nation.

geez the palestenian goverment was arrested once for 2 weeks because they refused to sign a peace treaty or a cease fire!!!!!!!!!
I would like a reference for this extraordinary claim. This is the third one you make with no sources.

Living in Lebannon my freind, im sorry i cant be more supportive for Israel. Ive seen enough suffering and conflicts in my country, that all i want to see now is just everybody stop playing football on in our field! all middle east conflictsdepend alot on what happens in Lebannon and politticians bargain on that.
While I feel for you, I think the objectivity is warranted, regardless of where one lives.

All i wanna see is that Palestenians given their country and state back(, and a fair deal, not a one that will violate their rite, and when they refuse just say they are the ones that are not willing to settle)
The Palestinians never did have a state which they can get back. Their attempt to finally get one is at the heart of the conflict.
As for a fair deal, as I have previously shown, there are fair proposals on the table right now, which many people from both sides agree to. The principles of one of those (the Geneva Accord) have been directly referenced by the current Israeli PM in the Bar Ilan speech. He also said there that Israel is ready to reopen negotiations with no preconditions. Currently it is the Palestinians who refuse to negotiate, putting forth preconditions to be met. That is not productive to moving forward.

, giving Lebannon back Shebaa Farms ( 22KM², i dont care its still ours , without it were not 10425 km²), Hezbollah surrending their weapons, and finally PEACE PEACE PEACE!!!!!!
On this we agree. However I believe such things should happen by agreement, not unilaterally under the threat of violence.




yeah nobody is obliged to check this link, niehter obliged to read your posts even, still i provide the link for those who want to know what is really going on, you really break it out wisely dont you?
The principle I am referring to is, references are brought as supporting tools in a debate. They support an argument. If you bring a reference that is outside the forum, it is up to you to summarize why you brought it up and what it is supposed to prove. Otherwise people need to guess what your argument is, and that's no way to debate.

" Houses that build within Israel municimality thadt do not complywith zoning commitee regulations "....i will summarize : Israel settles downs in palestine, sets new rules that say in this zone no Palestenian houses are allowed, take them down!!!!! YES HOW FAIR !!!!! now at least they have rules to  back up the destruction of those houses.
This is false. And is part of your misrepresentation of the facts. The fact of the matter is, illegal Israeli settlements have been demolished too. While, as I said, there might be some injustice and some callous bureaucracy, this is not part of some conspiracy against the Palestinians.

And i want to say this out loud :  THEY WERE OBLIGED TO TAKE DOWN THEIR HOUSES , IF NOT, YES THE MUNICIPALITY WILL TAKE THEM DOWN, BUT BUT BUT THOSE PALESTENIANS SHOULD PAY THE MUNICPALITY THE DESTRUCTION FEES!!!!!!
I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Yes, if you build something that is illegal, you are responsible for setting it right, including any fees that may apply. You may not like it, but that's how law and order generally works. Israel isn't out of the ordinary in that regard.

You have once again brought up a reference without tying it to anything or even having the courtesy to summarize it. That does not form an argument, in fact it forces one to guess your logical argument, and this is the last time I'll do it.
The reference you bring describes legal battles over houses in East Jerusalem based on land ownership. Specifically it brings the story of a house built 10 years ago, which a Jewish Israeli had ownership for the land.
This fails to demonstrate your point for several reasons:
- The article mentions 7 such cases, each of them taking many years in court to resolve. In a Palestinian population of millions, such occurrences are a drop in the bucket at best. This undermines the claim that there's some sort of organized, state-endorsed plot to "liberate" land from Palestinians.
- I don't know of any place in the world where it is ok to build on somebody else's land. In fact, there is a serious double standard here, because Israeli settlements that do this are condemned for it by you and others. The difference is that East Jerusalem was annexed and is subject to Israeli law, whereas settlements are not.
I would regard settlements built on previously Palestinian-owned land a bigger problem than houses built on Jewish-owned land being evicted. Note though that Palestinians do receive compensation if their land is used for anything - again, problematic, but not exactly some earth-shattering conspiracy for land grab. Incidentally, drafts of the possible agreements with the Palestinians include a land swap in a ratio of 1-to-1, which means that Israel has both paid the owner for the land and may well cede equal land in return, so it essentially pays twice. Not exactly the evil overlord approach, there.
- These incidents are not actually tied to any of your arguments. I've done my best to try and give your reference some relevance, but this is the last time I try it. It's too easy to misinterpret what you're trying to say when you don't say it outright. So from now on I'll only answer actual supported arguments, if you have any left.

so you build a house, now new laws and rules are in place and suddenly your house is illegal, and you should destroy it with your own hands, or pay for it to be destruct.
False. Israeli law as well as military law cannot be applied retroactively. Only if the action (building a house) was illegal when you did it, the law may apply to it.
Again, you might find a case here and there of injustice in applying these rules, but that's personal tragedy that's part of the larger tragedy that is occupation - not conspiracy.

you say il giving one side arguments, well your ( as many others ) defenetly not a bit concerned of what the Palestenians have suffered and see only one side of the story, this is why i speak from the other side....
I don't see why you think that. I unequivocally think that the situation for Palestinians is intolerable and they suffer greatly under the occupation. I also believe they have the right for self definition and their own sovereign state.
However I object to the implication that this justifies violence against civilians; as well as to the narrative where Israel as a whole plots to deprive the Palestinians of land, rights, and life.

I hope we're clear on that and can reach an understanding.
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« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2010, 18:31:07 PM »

I hope we're clear on that and can reach an understanding.

you two will not reach an understanding... from what I've seen here... you seem like a muslim believer vs a catholic believer discussing religion... it will not end...

poly are you israely? and paco is lebanese right?... so my money is on "you'll never reach and understanding"...

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« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2010, 18:35:43 PM »

you two will not reach an understanding... from what I've seen here... you seem like a muslim believer vs a catholic believer discussing religion... it will not end...

poly are you israely? and paco is lebanese right?... so my money is on "you'll never reach and understanding"...

Paco is lebanon but he's not a muslim, polymeron is just having an intelectual Ego battle, his post are so long the only one that reads them is paco.
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« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2010, 18:37:03 PM »

you two will not reach an understanding... from what I've seen here... you seem like a muslim believer vs a catholic believer discussing religion... it will not end...
If you find any of my arguments unreasonable, feel free to explain. I'm very open to differing opinions and interpretations.

poly are you israely? and paco is lebanese right?... so my money is on "you'll never reach and understanding"...
Does it matter who I am? Facts are facts no matter where you are. The truth remains the truth. While perspective may help as well as impede, people should be able to agree on the facts, if nothing else.

To my mind, the main question out of the discussion is whether or not directly and deliberately attacking civilians can be justified. My position is that it cannot, and in that I think I am in the consensus.

Paco is lebanon but he's not a muslim, polymeron is just having an intelectual Ego battle, his post are so long the only one that reads them is paco.
Yeah, sorry about that  hard
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« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2010, 19:35:06 PM »

If you find any of my arguments unreasonable, feel free to explain. I'm very open to differing opinions and interpretations.
nope, I don't understand very well that israelis wars... so I cannot debate like you and paco concerning this matter, I can only read what you guys say.
Does it matter who I am? Facts are facts no matter where you are. The truth remains the truth. While perspective may help as well as impede, people should be able to agree on the facts, if nothing else.
nope it doesn't matter, I just asked out of curiosity, you seem very passionate about in defending Israel, sorry but eve if that's not what you intended, it what it feels like.
the main question out of the discussion is whether or not directly and deliberately attacking civilians can be justified. My position is that it cannot, and in that I think I am in the consensus.
Nope it's not justified, in a war, civilians should not be killed, soldiers should, that's their job, to fight for "their country" and if must die doing so.

his post are so long the only one that reads them is paco.
and me *Tongue*  *freak*
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« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2010, 20:41:38 PM »


Like Israel withdrew from South Lebanon in 2000? That "step forward" didn't get the attacks to stop, did it?
If it's not the Shebaa farms, they will fight Israel in the name of aiding Palestinian struggle against occupation. If Palestinians get a state, they will find some other excuse.
OH so we should be very thankfull that they at least withdrawed from lands that have been occupied for more than 15 years? wat you just said just shows that Israel have always occupied foreign territories. and Yes maybe they will find another excuse, but for now for them being Lebanese, their excuses are valid for a certain category of people, but if israel withdraws from Shebaa and gives Palestine a free state, watever excuse they will give will not be enough fo the peple to support them, and their popularity will go down radically till they fall apart


You require Israel to unilaterally acquiesce to the demands of its attackers in order to get the attacks to stop, but with no promise or guarantee that they will. Here's a better, more sensible idea: Why don't Lebanon, Syria and Israel sit down to negotiate an actual peace agreement, that may include returning occupied land and releasing prisoners? Such an agreement would require the militias to disarm, of course. But if all they want is an end to the occupation of land, why wouldn't they agree to it?
The fact of the matter is, Hezbollah has refused to such initiatives in the past. Thus Israel has absolutely no incentive to cede over land or release prisoners - Israel believes the attacks will continue if they do. So do I. Unless the warring sides sit down to talk peace, I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.
like you said before : this post cannot be taken into serious , you dont know the exact details of what goes on under the table , and the bargains that go down, dont forget that Syria plays a VERY BIG role in this whole deal, nothing will go down without Syria's approval, and lets just say Syria and Lebannon are not the perfect neighbours anymore


No, it's not. Or at least, it's not anymore. I'm not saying there was no justification for resistance against occupation; but that occupation is gone. Hezbollah has no justification for its existence as an armed militia anymore, because the very things you cite as the reasons no longer exist.
The bloody history of Israel will always exist in the minds of those who saw the blood... And let me tell you in 2000 when Israel retreated Hezbollah was considered the main reason for that resistence, sure it wasnt the lebanese army  *freak*

Resisting what, exactly? Israel no longer occupies South Lebanon. Your "resistance force" has parliament members in a (supposedly) sovereign state. That's not very guerrilla of them, is it? They don't exactly live in caves and holes
there is still Shebaa and the Prisoners, and the Free Palestine State  *pardon* give them that, and for Palestine, give em back their country head_hurts_kr

Two problems with this.
First off, Hezbollah is very well armed and trained, receiving financial, ordnance and training support from both Syria and Iran. This is also why this organization is promoting their interests in the region, rather than those of the Lebanese people themselves.
Secondly, what I expect is that if Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance movement, it would fight the "oppressing" military exclusively, in the occupied region. That means not targeting civilians. I notice that you bring no counter evidence to this organization's use of anti-personnel rockets against cities nor other methods of targeting and killing innocents, nor the other violations of International law. This undermines your point that they are a legitimate organization. Rather, they are a terrorist group.

Again, the sensible solution is for the sides to come to an agreement. I reject your justification of Hezbollah attacks on civilians by them being a "resistance movement" or having less resources than the IDF, as if that can ever justify murdering innocents.
first of all im not a huge fan of Hezbollah, but when it comes to comparing them to Israel both are terrorist in equal measures to me, i believe Israel has soilled blood much more than Hezbollah, and for Israel being a country its NO excuse not saying " Isarel is Terror ". I agree 100% on wat u said about their supplies from SYria and Iran, and the propaganda, it is a fact. The fact that it is a militia it doesnt have the chance to get anti- aircraft weapons due to many reasons.
Again i belive much more innocents have been killed by Israel in palestine and Lebannon, than those killed by Hezbollah or Hamas. In a way you too dont seem to mention that

If "being attacked by seven other nations in addition to civil war" is considered "make your country in Palestine by force", then yes. Again this is a misrepresentation of the facts, since the UN recognized Israel as a state, which was followed by attacks from its neighbors with intent to destroy the fledgling nation. Note that Jewish settlements where the defensive failed, such as Kefar Ezion, were destroyed utterly, with every last defender getting gunned down.
This is a bit of a double standard for you, because you seem to think it's alright for the Palestinians and Lebanese to strike back with force, but it's not alright for the Israelis to have fought to defend their own homes.
HAVE YOU EVEN JUST FOR ONCE TRIED TO PUT YOURSELF IN THE SHOES OF PALESTENIANS? just maybe to understand wat they felt and feel now?another Nation has aprroval to settle down in your country,your not even asked about it, its like nobody cares about you( and nobody so far cared about palestenians ). Dont you think this was in a way unfair to Palestinians? I understand what have the Jew population went through, and i try to understand the suffering they went through. But why make a population suffer as much as you did? Look at palestenians NOW man! those who are living in foreign countries dont even say their Palestenians! those who are living in Arab countries will never get another Arab passport, they will alwyas be considered Refugees.

People building homes. How evil.
OH SO WHEN A PALESTENIAN BUILD HIS HOME 10 YEARS AGO? THAT WAS EVIL RITE??? BUT ISRAELI HOUSE BUILDING OVER PALESTENIAN BUILDIDNGS IS JUST SOOOOOO PERFECT

Actually, with the exception of those in annexed neighborhoods of Jerusalem, Palestinians are under military occupation, so they are subject to military law. This is precisely the issue at hand regarding Israeli occupation of the West Bank. But it's not as if Palestinians were under their own rule before 1967; the land was just as occupied, only by the Jordanians.
At any rate, an occupying army is required to govern an occupied territory and set rules there, by international law, until the region is returned, which of course we all hope will move forward expediently. The only other alternative is lawlessness, which I don't think would be in the best interests of the Palestinians.

Regarding those Palestinians in annexed neighborhoods of Jerusalem, they do answer to Israeli law, and are free to move around in Israel. They are also entitled to social security benefits and are generally better off than many Arab citizens around the world. However I agree that a more permanent solution is required, as well as them receiving citizenship in their own sovereign nation.
As much as i feel for Palestenians in that matter of Citenzship, i still think giving them citizen ship in Sovereign COuntries gives Israel a big satisfaction of a burden on its shoulders, so no, Palestenians should live in a FREE PALESTINE!

Quote
I would like a reference for this extraordinary claim. This is the third one you make with no sources.
EXTRAORDINARY? here you are :
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200609/ai_n16926803/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3291212,00.html
but im sure youll find some Israeli laws and say they were applied properly...

Quote
While I feel for you, I think the objectivity is warranted, regardless of where one lives.
first of all i dont need for anyone to feel for me, second Objectivity is not provided by western media, so i can speak clearly from the other side;

Quote
The Palestinians never did have a state which they can get back. Their attempt to finally get one is at the heart of the conflict.
ITS REALLY SHAMEFULL AND INAPPROPRIATE FROM YOUR SIDE SAYING THAT. yeah sure Palestenians were nomads and Israel just came and settle in a free space.

Quote
As for a fair deal, as I have previously shown, there are fair proposals on the table right now, which many people from both sides agree to. The principles of one of those (the Geneva Accord) have been directly referenced by the current Israeli PM in the Bar Ilan speech. He also said there that Israel is ready to reopen negotiations with no preconditions. Currently it is the Palestinians who refuse to negotiate, putting forth preconditions to be met. That is not productive to moving forward.
On this we agree. However I believe such things should happen by agreement, not unilaterally under the threat of violence.
I agree on that, now Palestenians leaders dont seem to agree on certain things, due to the conflict between Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas.

Quote
The principle I am referring to is, references are brought as supporting tools in a debate. They support an argument. If you bring a reference that is outside the forum, it is up to you to summarize why you brought it up and what it is supposed to prove. Otherwise people need to guess what your argument is, and that's no way to debate.
just dont go offtopic, i made arguments, you asked for a referecne i gave it to you, now if you dont wanna read it thats another thing

Quote
This is false. And is part of your misrepresentation of the facts. The fact of the matter is, illegal Israeli settlements have been demolished too. While, as I said, there might be some injustice and some callous bureaucracy, this is not part of some conspiracy against the Palestinians.

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Yes, if you build something that is illegal, you are responsible for setting it right, including any fees that may apply. You may not like it, but that's how law and order generally works. Israel isn't out of the ordinary in that regard.
You have once again brought up a reference without tying it to anything or even having the courtesy to summarize it. That does not form an argument, in fact it forces one to guess your logical argument, and this is the last time I'll do it.
The reference you bring describes legal battles over houses in East Jerusalem based on land ownership. Specifically it brings the story of a house built 10 years ago, which a Jewish Israeli had ownership for the land.
This fails to demonstrate your point for several reasons:
- The article mentions 7 such cases, each of them taking many years in court to resolve. In a Palestinian population of millions, such occurrences are a drop in the bucket at best. This undermines the claim that there's some sort of organized, state-endorsed plot to "liberate" land from Palestinians.
Some Injustice??? what happens to those Palestenians?

Quote
- I don't know of any place in the world where it is ok to build on somebody else's land. In fact, there is a serious double standard here, because Israeli settlements that do this are condemned for it by you and others. The difference is that East Jerusalem was annexed and is subject to Israeli law, whereas settlements are not.
why dont we go back in time a bit, and see " If there's any place in world " where all this discrimination is happening to a Population? you dont have any regard for human palestenian life and the way they live. SUbject to Israeli Law... Poly was it considered fair when Jews were killed by " Subject of Hitler Laws " ? ohh guess not...
Stop using the word law as its absolute and indiscussable subject

Quote
I would regard settlements built on previously Palestinian-owned land a bigger problem than houses built on Jewish-owned land being evicted. Note though that Palestinians do receive compensation if their land is used for anything - again, problematic, but not exactly some earth-shattering conspiracy for land grab. Incidentally, drafts of the possible agreements with the Palestinians include a land swap in a ratio of 1-to-1, which means that Israel has both paid the owner for the land and may well cede equal land in return, so it essentially pays twice. Not exactly the evil overlord approach, there.
- These incidents are not actually tied to any of your arguments. I've done my best to try and give your reference some relevance, but this is the last time I try it. It's too easy to misinterpret what you're trying to say when you don't say it outright. So from now on I'll only answer actual supported arguments, if you have any left.
False. Israeli law as well as military law cannot be applied retroactively. Only if the action (building a house) was illegal when you did it, the law may apply to it.
Again, you might find a case here and there of injustice in applying these rules, but that's personal tragedy that's part of the larger tragedy that is occupation - not conspiracy.
Obviously those " personnal tragedies" and "injustices" seem to happen alot, and while you choose to skip them, well i dont! because this popluation has a history on injustices of their rites, and i wont close my eyes on that , as you do.

Quote
I don't see why you think that. I unequivocally think that the situation for Palestinians is intolerable and they suffer greatly under the occupation. I also believe they have the right for self definition and their own sovereign state.
However I object to the implication that this justifies violence against civilians; as well as to the narrative where Israel as a whole plots to deprive the Palestinians of land, rights, and life.

I hope we're clear on that and can reach an understanding.

I really wanna stop quoting, i had alot of conversations of this kind, and i know where is this going, you seem very attached to your point of view as Israel being very rite about every thing it does, and then you just add " Well maybe some unjustice happened " , no my freind alot of unjustice happens everyday in Palestine, if you dont want to admitt it, it stays your personnal opinion.
And i really want to reach an understanding so we can stop quoting each other on every single sentence, and put an end to the bloody history that keeps being passed from generation to another, Peace is the only way out
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« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2010, 21:27:48 PM »

You have grossly misrepresented a lot of the things I said, put words in my mouth, and attacked lots of straw-man arguments and claims I never made. As well as rolled this into personal attacks.

I invite you to re-read what I have written and see if you actually disagree with what I said, rather than with what you imagine I said. Then we can have a civilized discussion. Or do I need to explicitly show all the places where you did that?

There's definitely no need to get so angry, we're trying to talk here  *rose*
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 21:55:37 PM by Polymeron » Logged

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